[CowBarbie]

Three Bars made a huge impact on the Quarter Horse ..to me it was a great impact .. both of my mares have Sugar Bars on their papers .. ..I just think it depends on what each indivdual (sp?) is looking for ... I think when people look at the photos you have to remember it was a diffrent time ... alot of pictures of the foundation horses don't look all that great but at that time maybe they were the best of what was avaliable ...

[Top Dun]

Additionally there was no shipped semen so it was all live cover and you had to haul the mares a distance or choose the best of the local stallions.

Originally Posted by CowBarbie

I think when people look at the photos you have to remember it was a diffrent time ... alot of pictures of the foundation horses don't look all that great but at that time maybe they were the best of what was avaliable ...

[Smoke N Lace]

Originally Posted by Lexy

Just wondering......... if you owned the above stallion, would you accept this mare for breeding?

If you owned the mare, would you consider breeding to the above stallion?

Lexy, my answer would have been yes and yes.

DB, I don't understand how the quick speed QH were bred for wouldn't be important to anyone interested in cow horses. We all know everyone raced their horses back then and speed was of greatest importance to those early breeders, but so was the ability to turn on a dime and catch a cow in a heartbeat. Those were horses that could pen cattle all week then win a race on Saturday morning. But, somewhere down the line, people decided there should be a type of QH for absolutely everything you can do on a horse, including 17 hand horses that look like TB.

Please explain further your aversion to the running blood from the old time breeders. Are you saying you don't like close-up TB bloodlines or that you dislike all TB blood? Personally, I wish they wouldn't allow outcrosses to TB any longer. We have registered QH now that you honestly can't tell are QH. IMO the breed would be better served by trying to breed to type, not lots of different types.

Looking at the records for Three Bars, like him or not, one just can't disagree that he made a tremendous impact on the breed and there will never be another stallion to equal him as a sire.

[QHGirl]

PLUS to be honest, the QH, TB, Arab industy has changed so much.... THOSE were the BEST OF THE BEST at that time!!!!!!

It is quite unfair to judge them NOW and compare to the stock we have available. THEY were the producers of of our NOW product horses.

[shell]

I feel a little stupid right now.
I thought Three Bars WAS a QH!!!!

[CowBarbie]

Smoke N Lace ... I think DB stated in here post she didn't care for this line of TB ..not that she didn't like any of them .... I knew some people who were into raising foundation quarter horses and the less Tb blood they had the better they liked them .. .. IMO in todays market (unless you are raising foundation to save certain bloodlines) people are looking at what is on the horses papers (show ring) ..after that the horses you see aren't really going to influence your horse ...I know right now in the cutting world alot of people are wanting an outcross (TB) because the horses are getting so close in relation ... besides alot of other problems like ..too small , toothpick legs etc ... It is a shame that it isn't like it use to be where you could show one horse at everything rather than having to have a diffrent horse for each event ...

[doublebarr]

Originally Posted by Smoke N Lace

DB, I don't understand how the quick speed QH were bred for wouldn't be important to anyone interested in cow horses. We all know everyone raced their horses back then and speed was of greatest importance to those early breeders, but so was the ability to turn on a dime and catch a cow in a heartbeat. Those were horses that could pen cattle all week then win a race on Saturday morning. But, somewhere down the line, people decided there should be a type of QH for absolutely everything you can do on a horse, including 17 hand horses that look like TB.

Please explain further your aversion to the running blood from the old time breeders. Are you saying you don't like close-up TB bloodlines or that you dislike all TB blood? Personally, I wish they wouldn't allow outcrosses to TB any longer. We have registered QH now that you honestly can't tell are QH. IMO the breed would be better served by trying to breed to type, not lots of different types.

Looking at the records for Three Bars, like him or not, one just can't disagree that he made a tremendous impact on the breed and there will never be another stallion to equal him as a sire.

Smoke - I never said that he did not make an impact. Matter of fact, I said I VERY MUCH approved of one specific foal, when crossed on "cow" mares like Dandy Doll, produced an "oops" for that line, but that oops was the BEST of the lines he produced, IMO. That would be Doc Bar.

I do not care for Three Bars as a "cow" stud in much else that he produced. Also, Three Bars NEVER saw a days work on cattle in his life, LOL. He was a TB and bred to race only. I make it a point to try and have as "little" Three Bars lines in my horses as possible, except for the Doc Bar tie. But, the Doc Bar tie works because of the mares he was bred to. Makes a big difference on what mares you look at from the lines. Three Bars also crossed well, IMO, on Peggy N for Clabber Bar which is the "other" Three Bars line that I "accept"(for lack of a better word.)

There are MANY lines that NEVER saw Three Bars that still produce for cow in todays horses that we can use without ever including Three Bars. I DO like the TB lines they trace back to and through good breeding on good mares, still hold the "cow".

Just some of those are:
Mr San Peppy - Mr San Peppy Quarter Horse
Hollywood Jac 86 - Hollywood Jac Quarter Horse
and Hollywood Gold - Hollywood Gold Quarter Horse
Two Eyed Jack - Two Eyed Jack Quarter Horse
Poco Bueno - Poco Bueno Quarter Horse
Blue Valentine - Blue Valentine Quarter Horse
Mr. Gunsmoke - Mr Gunsmoke Quarter Horse
Burr Oak Bailey - Burr Oak Bailey Quarter Horse
Sun Mitch - Sun Mitch Quarter Horse
Skipper W - Skipper W Quarter Horse

You can go with these lines without ever brining in Three Bars, yet still have "trace backs" to TB horses that I (me) feel are stronger in the "cow" department and produced more "ranch type/using type/cow type" blood than those that Three Bars produced.

Look at the Old Sorrel breeders, Joe Reed, Oklaholma Star, Blue Valentine & Hancock Breeders. They have websites dedicated to the influence of these horse and their lines on the QH today. These are "more the type" of horses I (me) am interested in. These are the ones that "catch my interest". I also like Chicaro (TB) ties.

And no, not all QH breeders or "users" were dedicated to just increasing speed on their horses. Around the late 1940's and on the AQHA seemed to "change focus" from the beginning and head toward a "Racing Industry". There are those back then, and those still today, who did not and do not want to go that way. A little TB influence is fine, but not to the extent that we have seen and are seeing it go for US. That is the key word, US.

Doesn't mean that TB's did not have an influence on the breed yesterday and today, it just means that we would perfer to keep the influence a lot "less" than others in the industry.

And, a lot of those early "match race" QH type horses had VERY little TB influence. A lot had "cold blood" directly in the line. So the TB was brought in to also "refine" those old lines.

Is the QH indebted to the TB horses? Yes, very much so. Do we all want to "become a second cousin to the TB? Nope, that is our focus now, staying true to the "original breed standard" without denying the benefits of "limited" outcrossing.

[doublebarr]

Originally Posted by CowBarbie

.. IMO in todays market (unless you are raising foundation to save certain bloodlines) people are looking at what is on the horses papers (show ring) ..after that the horses you see aren't really going to influence your horse ...

Actually, that depends on which market you focus on. In the Ranch Horse (I mean REAL ranch horses ) & using horse market, the "foundation" still means a lot. What is "on the papers" matters because of the way it ties back to the lines that came before. The Pitzer horses are one of the best examples. They stay as "true" to the "original" lines as possible with limited outcrossing to keep the genetics "fresh" and they still have one of the most sought after "herds" in the working horse world. And they still ring high for the roping horse world.

The AQHA show ring has become such a different universe from the QH world of working/using horses that it's nearly impossible to compare the two anymore. And like you, I think that's a shame.

[Little Red Dun]

Little off-topic, but doublebarr, can you share some of the 'cowy' Thoroughbred lines in Quarter Horses?

I've never really thought of Thoroughbreds as 'cowy', but I would guess not too long ago they probably used them on ranches, etc. so it makes sense. And now my interest is up and I'd like to learn more.

[doublebarr]

LRD - It's not that the TB's were cowy in and of themselves, but when crossed on the right mares and the following crosses were the right ones, you ended up with cow.

Lines such as Joe Blair (TB) on Della More (QH) produced Joe Reed:
Joe Reed Quarter Horse

Dennis Reed (TB) on Cutthroat (QH) produced Oklahoma Star:
Oklahoma Star Quarter Horse

Peter McCue (QH) who went back to Steel Dust (QH) (who went back to Timoleon (TB) and was out of a "TB Type mare") Peter Mccue Quarter Horse

Traveler (TB) Traveler Thoroughbred

Then there's Old Fred (QH) who went back to a Standardbred mare and to Steel Dust:
Old Fred Quarter Horse

Old Sorrel who went back to Timoleon (TB) and Steel Dust(QH):
Old Sorrel Quarter Horse

Then we've got Joe Hancock who went back to Peter McCue and his TB line and on the dam side a Percheron tie:
Joe Hancock Quarter Horse

King (QH) another others who go back to Zantanon (QH) who goes back to Traveler (TB): King Quarter Horse

Gray Badger II (QH) who has a strong Peter McCue tie back to his TB lines:
Grey Badger Ii Quarter Horse


Wimpy (QH) who again goes back to Old Sorrel and Peter McCue and his TB line: Wimpy Quarter Horse


There are more, but it would take a book.
You also have the mares:
Mary Greencock (TB) Mary Greenock Thoroughbred
Who was the dam of Gray Badger III and ties into the Peter McCue TB line.

Nora M (TB) who was so important in the Peter McCue equation:
Nora M Thoroughbred

The Triangle mares who all had Morgan ties:
This is one: Triangle Lady Quarter Horse

The Burnett and Wagoner mares, who not much is "known for fact" on but are believed to have strong TB ties.

There are many more, but check it out yourself. Look at pedigrees on QH's and see what's back there and how often it shows up on "producing" lines. That's the best way to learn.