[DancerLover08]

I want to jump in here and ask what all the negativity is about. Hunter Under Saddle horses are very elegant, beautiful horses. HUS is NOT "Western in an English saddle" at ALL. My HUS horse does exactly that, and can not compete in Western classes whatsoever. Many, many horses can not cross over. The horses do not even move close to similiarly. The only thing I can see that MIGHT relate them is a low headset, but how does that make it a "Western horse?"

[IIIBarsV]

Dancerlover- I can tell you *exactly* why there is negativity from hunter/jumps, eventers, dressage riders, and anyone who does not own or show a stock breed horse. I love HUS, and riding english. I love riding HUS horses who are long and low, framed up level and gliding along on light contact- I own/have owned a couple other horses who are that style (a palomino who was placing in the breed shows and my western pleasure mare when she feels like trotting out, plus a couple friends' horses).

However, I will give you the run-down of what I dislike about the HUS "world" and the current "type" of horses and riders. My opinions are my own, but I've heard non-stock breed people complaining about the exact same things.

A lot of HUS horses (who JUST do that) seem very strung out. Seen a couple that lope well but their trots... ugh. The hocks almost seem to FLOP. The ones that win are the good movers. One good one I know personally is "For The General", a 17hh gelding who won Congress Amateur Select Equitation last year. That horse crosses over to western and moves beautifully, with impulsion and control, and he deserves every win he gets- so does his rider. 17hh, but a successful all-around horse, who has gone to Congress, the Worlds, etc.

The other bunch that don't win need to seriously learn how to use their hind ends, and that is pretty much what kills them in the eyes of non-stock breed english riders. They kind of float along without any real impulsion (the hocks seem to float instead of striding strongly), and THAT is what makes most of them very different from a "true english" horse, no matter what the breed is. That is where the negativity stems from, as well.

Much of the time we're seeing HUS horses (non-crossover ones) who are riding on zero contact or even noticeably loose reins, plunking on their forehands with lots of stretch in their strides but no impulsion or effort at all from the rear. They reach up under themselves, but they don't push. The conformation breeding on these horses needs to change. The hocks are often set too high up with long cannons. We need longer gaskins and lower set hocks. We need shorter cannon bones, shorter backs, bigger hips. Height should not be a reason to breed poor movers or poor conformation that would break down after the first year of jumping or needs to be injected to stay sound on the flat by the time they're 5.

Most of all- we need trainers who elevate the front end and train that hind-end impulsion up, instead of stringing the horses out like big furry clotheslines. They're going for the big stride instead of the correct stride. Some of them are moving the horses out too fast, resulting in a long stride, but one that is borderline hand-gallop and flat. In all truth, I don't mind the canters so much at all. The horses are naturally pretty good at cantering. It's the trotting that gets me. I saw many at Congress that I would've loved to have gotten on myself and pushed up into a trot.

Another thing, about equitation. The riders need to get the arch out of their backs and their hands out of a posture. The big rage this year in equitation is to ride with square elbows, like the perfect image of equitation (finally, the piano hands bite the dust...) But those hands are just sitting there doing a whole lot of nothing except being stiff. The arms are stiff, the shoulders are stiff, the hips, the back, the rider's head and neck. They are trying to ride with jumping-length stirrups in a close contact saddle with an open waist, upright (something the average close contact saddle is not designed to do). This is acceptable because these horses are so smooth, the jouncing on the rider is minimal, but it's still there and the trained eye can see them flopping down out of a posting trot, wobbling all over and grabbing at the reins when they need to correct the horse. Or, the stirrups are so long the rider posting ends up on their tippy-toes. I ride with mine longer, but not that long. My saddle is a close contact, but it supports an almost dressage-y position. My biggest peeve here is that the rider sits there like a lump. The equitation patterns were atrocious- I don't think anybody had heard of a "straight line". The equitation riders were too often focused on keeping up appearances instead of *riding* the horse through the pattern. How are you going to see where you're going if you're looking at the ceiling?

I would rather see the riders ride more like hunters, with contact on the reins, a forward seat, an easy-going horse that is propelling itself from behind, not pulling and stretching out the front. I would rather the horses look more like Quarter Horses than TB's or warmbloods with skinny long necks. I've seen purebred TBs with more hip than these "quarter horses". Part of it (most of it) is the way they're ridden and trained.

Now, I am generalizing here, and as I said, the horses who are winning are the good ones. If the general population walks into an AQHA breed show and sees a bunch of strung out loose-reined horses with big front strides and short hind strides... if they're used to seeing TBs, Warmbloods, or foundation (*cough* "real") quarter horses, or if they show hunter/jumper, event, or ride and show Dressage.... can you see why they'd be shocked at the appearance of stock breed HUS horses? The "average" HUS horse looks awful to a non-stock breed rider.

That said, I know more than several local club AQHA and APHA horses who are just phenomenal in HUS, and they also ride western pleasure well enough to be decent. As HUS horses, I just love them. They are level-necked, striding out, with a ton of impulsion and power from behind. The strides on front and hind are even and huge. A couple of these horses have shown at local hunter shows and done very well in HUS. On average, they're around 15.2-16hh, pretty, also Halter winners, long legged, low-hocked, and big hipped.

So yes, that is why there is so much negativity surrounding HUS stock breeds. Albeit less than the western pleasure people or reiners get, it still exists. It is there for the exact same reasons why stock breed people think all english horses are "crazy" or that arabians are "hot headed". I know plenty of english horses who ARE crazy, and plenty of "hot" arabians. I also know plenty of dead quiet english and arabian horses, and more than one quarter horse I would not trust at all. (Paint horses seem to be either very hot, or very quiet. Not sure what to make of that phenomena). Or that all reiners pound and ride roughly on their horses.

There is enough truth behind generalizations to make them turn into generalizations to start with- if the problem wasn't widespread, people wouldn't be able to generalize about it. There are plenty of horses who don't fall into the generalization category, but the fact remains, there are still enough to make it a problem that people notice. Kind of like the peanut rollers. There was a time when HUS stock horses were also peanut rollers, also shut down, and nowhere close to moving out faster.


Anyways, you asked

Buck, you hit the nail on the head, with the exception of the trail riding- Ben's fantastic on trails. He does like showing- he was happy as a cow in clover to ride with the other horses and see things. Actually, he "woke up" more in the regular rail classes. This makes me wonder if he was sluggish in Hunter Hack because he was being loped away from the line up of horses behind us (which is why the shoulder popped a bit- I did have my outside leg on him). At home, when we ride with another horse, he tends to lean towards them a lot and wants to go follow the other horse. He's not *bad* about it persay, but I can still feel that hesitation in his stride.

Dot: Most of the time I leave his face alone, and for the last few months all we did was focus on tooling around and forward on a loose rein (that is the onnnnnly way he's even going faster than a walk in the riding pen now, lol). Now he's much better, but now that I'm asking him to move it up to the next level- ie, coming on the contact a little bit, pressure-release giving to the bit, flexing vertically, get some elevation in the stride, etc.... I get Mr Giant Pillow about 50% of the time. (Seems to depend on the day).

Maybe I just keep riding him normally, get him in "barrel horse" shape, increase the grain ration a bit... he's on less than normal and more hay because he gets a bit wound up and obnoxious on the halter on oats- he's on soaked shredded beet pulp [no molasses], rolled oats, rolled barley- less than my little barrel horse gets, so I could easily increase that and get him a little "fresher". Or, I could ride up and down the road, but the last time I did that, he kicked out at a car that didn't move over. LOL (Whoops). At least he put energy into it. *shrug*

The forward is the focus for jumping. However, for the flat classes, he can go at his own pace, but in order to get more collection out of him, I need more forward. LOL

I'm feeling like this will be an ongoing "build him up" project, focussing more on transitions (walk-canter, walk-trot, canter-trot, canter-walk), rather than "moving him out once we're already moving". The transitions may encourage the forward to get a little better, and build on each other. I will also try him back on the road (we do have a safe grassy ditch that is about 30' wide).

[DancerLover08]

^^IIIBars: Hehe, you're reply is too long to quote, so here's my response. I understand generalizations, but people need to realize they are just that. The dressage around here is a JOKE, but I don't generalize and say that ALL dressage is like that, which I see alot of people doing about HUS. It seems that just because they see horses like that at the lower levels (and I agree, they are there) they think it happens at levels. Well, I see dressage horses, and Hunter horses around here that are strung out and above the bit and hauling butt around the arena (it is the norm in my area), but I am educated enough to know that is not correct and I understand that is not what the class is about. Other people need to understand that about HUS. Just because you see it at the lower levels does not mean it is correct. People who generalize ANY discipline or breed are uneducated and close minded.

[IIIBarsV]

That is basically the jist of it. Like I said, I ride HUS too and love it. I see some not-so-great english horses that are exactly as you described at my local clubs too. (You can see them in the background of some of my videos, lol). However, most of the not-so-great HUS is seen at the local breed shows, which is considered "bigger" level as compared to clubs. It's almost like to ride at breed level and stand a chance, you have to be on a horse who moves like this and is 16HH+.

At the World show, things are tidier. At Congress? Well, anyone can show there. What I have a problem with about HUS "in general" are that there are common problems which are due to conformation on a wide level (a stallion wins once and suddenly everybody wants one of his babies or babies' babies... etc- no thought to longterm breeding programs aside from $$$$) and also the trainers seem to be using the same methods. It was very hard to tell horses and riders apart because they all looked identical- moved the same, rode the same.

Unfortunately, I'm not campaigning to end it or change it. The good riders and trainers know what they're doing, and not everybody can be a great rider or trainer. This is simply a part of human nature. But, the obvious things that give stock breeds a "rep" need to continue to be poohed-poohed and rules enforced by the breed associations and their judges. We got rid of the dreaded peanut-rollers- now we need to put more emphasis on the movement and way of going, rather than the headset. A good mover will have a head that doesn't move "just because" they are conformationally able to do it that way.

As for the equitation... well, an icky rider is an icky rider, but equitation ought to be more penalized than it is in HUS. A good judge will place the better rider anyway, because a good rider just flows so much more smoothly with their horse than someone who is "posed" on the horse's back. The overall picture looks so much nicer when the equitation is correct, not faked.

As you can see, I have a lot to say on the matter... LOL. What really makes the difference is setting the good example for people, as well as taking opportunities to ride in new events or in different styles... people respect your opinion much more when they've seen you doing well in various types of riding.

As it is, to critique myself... Ben will be good in HUS locally, but I need that forward motion to get him pushing out his trot. When he's more trained up and hopefully softer/lighter *crosses fingers*, he will be tough in Equitation. He's actually quite maneuverable despite his size. My mom wants to do some trail with him, and he'll be fine in western pleasure because all he wants to is jog along all day.

[dotgotcalm]

Originally Posted by DancerLover08

People who generalize ANY discipline or breed are uneducated and close minded.

And people who generalize about other people are....what?

My main problem with the HUS classes at the QH shows is the height thing. You are right, IIIBars, it's gotten harder and harder, if not impossible, to win at a QH show on a horse who actually looks like a QH! Now, if you happen to have something that looks like a TB standing around, regardless of how it moves, you can stick it in and do pretty well under most judges. Well, enough to beat the 15 hd horse that moves better anyway.

Then, there's that trot....sigh....a friend of mine who'd recently gotten her AQHA judges card but who's background is traditional English was really on a rant about everyone doing an extended trot in the HUS classes so at her first large show she called for a trot and then an extended trot in the Sr. HUS class. The first way of the ring when they called for the extended trot it was chaos. LOL! Not a horse in the pen could possibly lengthen it's stride any farther than it was already going for the trot so most of them just sped up and the horses started coming apart thinking they'd be punished for it. The riders should have anticipated that she'd call for it again the second way of the pen and shortened their strides but they didn't and they all went right back to trotting full out. When she called for the extension the second time almost all the riders ignored the command and didn't change a thing. So, out of a class of 13 horses she placed only two. Talk about some ticked off people! Whew! It was nearly a riot! LOL! Of course, they complained to the association and she got called to the mat for it but, bless her soul, she stuck to her guns and there wasn't a thing they could do to her. Since then she's developed a reputation for DQing WP horses for low heads. She shows no mercy. It's really rather refreshing to see her give some really big names the gate when they are sure that they've won the class just because of who they are. The assoc. would just love to get rid of her but since she isn't doing anything but enforcing their rules they can't touch her. I really thought she just wouldn't get any more calls to judge but thankfully, there are plenty of clubs that actually appreciate what she's trying to do so she stays pretty busy.

[Care To Jazz?]

Just thought I would mention: Hunter horses are hunter horses, not western horses in english tack. The top notch hunter horses are bred for HUS, H O/F, Hunter Hack, etc etc. A lot of horses are trained for western pleasure and shown Hunter, and vice versa, but a real hunter horse is a horse that was bred and is shown english.

I really like that horse you're riding Seems a little lazy though. Didn't read everyone's posts, i bet you got some good info.

[IIIBarsV]

Update:

I had Ben out at the same show on Saturday. He was a bit frisky for a change, even pitched a couple little fits (but I'm used to riding the little roan, who is more rough when she's just loping along lol). He had more energy, and was a bit herd-bound to my western pleasure mare that my sister had brought out. Ben has been turned out by himself due to his pasture buddy undergoing an operation on his jaw and he only sees this mare through the fence. Oh well.

Anyways, this extra boost of energy turned him into a forward horse! In Hunter Hack this time he was moving out, didn't chip on either jump, and put some really great effort into his jumps. (Blew a lead, but that's fixable). Complete difference from last time. We won the class again.

Of course, after that, everything fell apart. LOL. He got pretty wound up and kept screaming his head off, started ignoring me. Tried to pitch a fit in the middle of what at first was a very nice Eq pattern. Then I went and forgot to switch my number over for Western Pleasure.... oops.

But at least Hunter Hack had major improvement! The hay is off now, so I've been riding him out in the field again and getting a ton more forward. Next weekend we're going to a small local fair, which has HUS, WP, and some low hunter classes- plain rails, I'm going to take him in them up to 2'3. He pretty much jumps whatever I point him at, the real kicker, as you bunch pointed out, is how forward he is at the time. lol

[IIIBarsV]

Here's what he looked like when we first entered our HUS class and were trotting around. He held this look and a beautiful big impulsive trot for about half the ring before he got distractable and "greenie" again. (He's got more arch through his poll because he's looking at a shadow from a telephone pole on the ground directly in front of him. He's silly like that.)

Ben has potential!

[dreamngold]

yep you defientely need more go on this horse... not that it needs to be fast, but more impulsion... he needs to move up when you ask, and come back when you ask...

[Quick2Skip01]

Gorgeous pic! I agree about the fact that unfortunately- the tall horses win in HUS simple as that. Its unfortunate that many people are sacrificing proper movement for height. Skip and I do well in HUS, as long as there arent any long legged appendixs in the mix.

I think Ben is going to be an awesome horse, just gotta get the go in him =)