[JBandRio]

GCA, if you are talking about the white spot on the rump, I'll buy that the skin underneath is black and it is not the work of Sabino. Rabicano possibly, Birdcatcher possibly.

But, what HHF is getting at is the white face markings and the white legs on the horses you showed DO have pink skin and ARE the work of Sabino - very classic Sabino at that The feet are white that I can see, meaning the skin is pink.

I do also realize that not all white hairs on face markings have underlying pink skin. My WB gelding IS Sabino - his face markings and leg white show it. But the outer edges of his white face marking has dark skin. ALL the hair there was white when he was young, but now he has a more scattered white hair look on the edges of the marking, but the middle of the marking still does and always did have pink skin.

[GCA-HGEsquire]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

GCA, if you are talking about the white spot on the rump, I'll buy that the skin underneath is black and it is not the work of Sabino. Rabicano possibly, Birdcatcher possibly.
Correct BUT it can not be Rabicano OR a Birdcatcher soooo really want to know what it is

But, what HHF is getting at is the white face markings and the white legs on the horses you showed DO have pink skin and ARE the work of Sabino - very classic Sabino at that The feet are white that I can see, meaning the skin is pink.
Exactly - this I am aware of. In fact we market and campaign HG Esquire+ heavily as a Purebred Sabino Arabian which to some Arabian breeders/owners/etc. feel is a bad thing. He IS what he IS and we think
HG Esquire+ ROCKS I happen to really like all the extra bling

I do also realize that not all white hairs on face markings have underlying pink skin. My WB gelding IS Sabino - his face markings and leg white show it. But the outer edges of his white face marking has dark skin. ALL the hair there was white when he was young, but now he has a more scattered white hair look on the edges of the marking, but the middle of the marking still does and always did have pink skin.
Understand completely...we call that Halo Etching and it is also a indicative sign of the Sabino gene at work...

Denise Gainey

[accphotography]

I have DEFINITELY seen sabino cause those types of white spots like what is on her rump in Thoroughbreds. they are not Birdcatcher spots, they do not change, the do not have pink skin (or the pink skin is SOO tiny as to not be easily noticeable). I have seen them born with these spots with absolutley no sign of rabicano or anything else but sabino. I have never heard sabino has to have underlying pink skin. How about all of the flank roaning sabino causes... no pink skin there.

I also think that unless that mare was born with that mark, that it could have been an injury, explaining the dark skin.

How about simply a mismark? I've seen those plenty too.

ACC

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by GCA-HGEsquire

And the above is the case with our PB Arabian Stallion, HG Esquire+. He has high whites, ermine spots in his stockings, a blaze that extends under his chin that also includes a ermine spot and a body spot on his belly. He is neither Tobiano or Overo Photos from both sides

I'm quite confused then about what this post was about You said this horse is neither Tobiano nor Overo, but he is clearly Sabino which IS a form of Overo.

Now if you really meant that he was clearly not Frame, that's different. But "Overo" encompasses 3 distinct patterns.

[GCA-HGEsquire]

Originally Posted by accphotography

I have DEFINITELY seen sabino cause those types of white spots like what is on her rump in Thoroughbreds.
I understand BUT it is said not to happen in Purebred Arabians and this she is...verified by Blood Typing and DNA

they are not Birdcatcher spots, they do not change, the do not have pink skin (or the pink skin is SOO tiny as to not be easily noticeable).
Exactly - No pink skin at all

I have seen them born with these spots with absolutley no sign of rabicano or anything else but sabino. I have never heard sabino has to have underlying pink skin.
As I understand it, Rabicano and Sabino are two seperate entities. Sabino is white markings with underlying pink skin and Rabicano is white ticking thru out the coat mimicing roaning which is not a genetic possibility with Purebred Arabians

How about all of the flank roaning sabino causes... no pink skin there.
Again, as I understand it, this is not caused by a Sabino characteristic but by Rabicano characteristic which does not have pink skin under the areas of white hair.

I also think that unless that mare was born with that mark, that it could have been an injury, explaining the dark skin.
Nope, not an injury. I seen this mare at 2 days old, again at 2 weeks old and very often thereafter until our acquisition. Born with it

How about simply a mismark? I've seen those plenty too.
Mismark....No idea???? what is that? I have never even heard of that term... Please divulge.

ACC

Denise Gainey

[3WishesDun]

I have always wondered if there is a correlation between how much face white a horse has and how much leg white.

Has anyone ever seen a horse without a spot of white on their face that has 4 white socks or stockings?

My gelding has a thin stripe and 4 white socks with ermine spots. He also has birdcatcher spots.
And then my other gelding has a big blaze and nose white with a teeny tiny anklet of white on one leg.












___________________________________________
Doc




Seems like more face white would = more leg white... but I guess as always.... it depends!

[GCA-HGEsquire]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

I'm quite confused then about what this post was about You said this horse is neither Tobiano nor Overo, ********but he is clearly Sabino which IS a form of Overo.********

Now if you really meant that he was clearly not Frame, that's different. ******But "Overo" encompasses 3 distinct patterns*****.

OK, ? #1, it is said that the Purebred Arabians do NOT possess the Overo capability and it is not associated with the Overo gene. That if it were then the Lethal White gene would also appear in Purebred Arabians. Remember, I am only repeating what I have been told and read. I too thought that the Sabino gene was clearly a form of Overo?????

Now, question #2, please explain how you mean 3 distinct patterns for Overo as this is something that is not discussed in the color patterns for Purebred Arabians at this point.

Thanks,

Denise Gainey

[3WishesDun]

Overo is broken down into 3 forms---Frame Overo (the pattern that in homozygous form produces OLWS/Lethal White), Sabino, and Splash White.

[GCA-HGEsquire]

Originally Posted by 3WishesDun

Overo is broken down into 3 forms---Frame Overo (the pattern that in homozygous form produces OLWS/Lethal White), Sabino, and Splash White.

And see that is another dilemma I have. You mention Splash and as it is known now there is no such thing as a Splash Arabian (can not gentically happen) HOWEVER....take a peak at this. This IS a Purebred Arabian and I tend to think he MAY be Spalsh and definatley Sabino



Now I have to stop chatting LOTS to do this a.m. but will look forward to coming back this afternoon to catch up!

Denise Gainey

[ryu2832]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

I'm quite confused then about what this post was about You said this horse is neither Tobiano nor Overo, but he is clearly Sabino which IS a form of Overo.

Now if you really meant that he was clearly not Frame, that's different. But "Overo" encompasses 3 distinct patterns.

Just to clarify:

Sabino SB1: is caused by a mutation in the KIT gene.

Tobiano: Is associated with SNP mutations in the EDNRB and cKIT genes

OLWS: missense mutation in the EDNRB gene

Other Overo: associated with EDN3, RET, and PAX3 genes.

While other forms of Sabino haven't been characterized. It is clear that there are different genes involved.

While the inheritance of the white pattern may be similar, and Sabino may phenotypically be characterized as a form of Overo. The genotype is non-related to what is currently recognised as Overo genes.