[Jenje!]

Originally Posted by Blistering Winds

Problem with talking and showing off, is the fact that it is a lead into "more" with a stallion.

So NO. I do not allow my GELDING, MARE nor stallion to "talk and show off" while I am leading them.

UNLESS.......it is breeding time. Then my stallion and/or mare can do what they want within reason.

Talking and showing off tells me their minds are NOT on me. NOT on my safety. NOT on what is in front of them as the numbnuts walks into the side of the BARN as we enter the barn. (and he has ran into the door before cause his attention was OBVIOUSLY not on the task at hand)

Talking gets them "worked up" and then you are now fighting not just the behavior, but instinct, hormones, etc.

"Talking" is foreplay in the horse world. So NO NO NO NO NO do I allow my mare or stallion to "talk" while I am leading them. Because I value my safety and do NOT want to fight hormones while leading a stallion anywhere.

My stallion could be lead among mares. My stallion could be ridden with mares IN SEASON. And many others can as well because the owners draw the line in a very SERIOUS manner and keep many "precursers" to breeding in strict control.


Certain types of "equipment" have been used over the years by many to "allow" stallions to "be goofy" because they know they get to "do what they please".

Breeding sheds especially will have a SPECIFIC halter. Even the positioning of the chain will make a difference! One breeding shed I saw had the chain "over the nose" for breeding time. Under the chin for leading and everyday work.

Depending on where that chain was, determined the demeanor of the stud.

This is almost exactly how I feel about it. The stallion may do what he want in the pasture or in his stall (regarding "talking"), but when I am handling or riding... if the mouth is open, the mind is generally closed!

Of course there are exceptions... but who wants to wait to find out?

IMO/E a stallion who is allowed to talk to mares when he is wearing his every day halter or being asked to work is on a fast track to an accident or incident of some kind. And of course, at that point it's entirely the handler's fault for not being more on top of things.

I have seen a young, inexperienced (and at the time, talking) stallion run straight into a gate... and had no problem with the handler allowing him to do that, either... he sure paid attention the rest of the way to the barn. Then I have also seen a stallion rip away from his handler and try to attack a heavy arena mirror. So you see how things can escalate.

I have a gelding who, on trail rides, will "talk" to himself almost constantly... It's adorable and never seems to take away from his attention to me. It is, "*snort*... *nicker... nic... nicker*... *nicker, snort*" He really enjoys being ridden and that is one of his odd-ball ways of expressing that particular joy. But he is a gelding, and not likely to be distracted by a pretty mare!

Originally Posted by SweetSavannah

Would you merely re-direct the horse's attention, or would you reprimand it with a tug on the lead rope/chain/chiffney?

I know this was directed at BW, but I felt compelled to answer... I hope you don't mind.

I believe there is a time and place for both... nearly always starting with the re-direct and, in the event that that is ineffective, moving to the correction.

[SweetSavannah]

Bruce

So you are saying yes, you will allow chatter and showing off so long as the horse is still listening to you?

Jenje

Yeah

I will always start with redirecting when leading. When tied up though I'll be a lot stricter. If I'm doing something like cleaning out his feet or whatever I can't have my eyes on him the whole time so he needs to be standing obediently. Whereas with leading, I really don't mind a bit of expressiveness AS LONG AS he's still obediently following me. If his mind starts wandering though look out! But I think constantly nagging him to "shut up" will eventually form resentment.

Talking doesn't ALWAYS lead to other things. As with your gelding he was just happy and was expressing it. I think some outlet for their natural feelings is necessary... otherwise it would just build up and explode!

I hate watching people constantly shanking their horses at shows and yelling at them to "pay attention!" it's just not the way I want to go.

[Jenje!]

My point was that geldings are much, much different than stallions. Oh well.

[WashingtonBay]

Originally Posted by SweetSavannah

I hate watching people constantly shanking their horses at shows and yelling at them to "pay attention!" it's just not the way I want to go.

If they are doing any correction constantly, they're not doing it right. The horse isn't getting the message.

The choice is not between needling him to death or letting him gawk and talk to everyone at a show. There's another option... reasonable and consistent rules that the horse understands because they don't change with whether he's at a show or on a trail ride or walking the barn aisle or under saddle or having his feet trimmed.

Example... Letting him nicker and talk to everyone in the warm up ring while you sit and chit chat or something is like a kid being allowed to talk to everyone else in a restaurant. While you may think your kid is the cutest thing ever and you love his expressiveness and curiosity... the people at the next table don't necessarily want to have to engage with him, they're trying to keep their own kid at the table and behaving. Or they don't want to talk to a kid at all.

[SweetIron]

i always learned, that you should let them look a little to see their surroundings, and then direct their attention back to You. My mare is always a looky-loo when I walk her out of the barn. Sure, she has seen the driveway, the house, the fence a trillion times. But her head always goes up to look. I direct her attention back to me after letting her look for a few seconds and she is fine. Once, I just disregarded her need to see her surroundings, and yanked her head back to me, and she reacted by being finr for a second and then shying majorly at a wooden pallet that was sitting around out there and hurting my foot. Now I can place weird objects out there, and once she looks at them and sees that I don't care that they're there, she just follows along.

[SweetSavannah]

Hmm

Stallions different to geldings? You think so???

Of course they are different. End of the day they are both horses though. If a stallion is NEVER allowed to sniff another horse then he won't expect to. I'm not talking about letting him go 'play" with other horses.

But still, I am undecided between it being harmless to let them express themselves so long as they remain obedient, and it being the first step towards having an out of control stallion.

If you've done your homework though he should never get out of control.

I "personally" would prefer him to be quiet all the time. I mean a whinny at a show could send mares stampeding towards us! But the owner says to ignore it as long as he's still following me obediently.

I'm guessing this is what he's been taught in his limited training.

He isn't totally unsocialised. He is kept next door to a 3yr old colt and they smooch eachother over the fence all the time. They can touch noses but not get any closer than that, so they just stand there touching noses and nibbling on eachother's faces!

Do you think it's preferable that he stays quiet all the time when being lead and groomed???

[WashingtonBay]

I don't let my other horses call and bugle to their buddies when I lead them away, why him?

[Jenje!]

Originally Posted by SweetSavannah

Hmm

Stallions different to geldings? You think so???

Well, that was unnecessary.

Do you think it's preferable that he stays quiet all the time when being lead and groomed???

Yes, I do.

You asked what we do and why- what we allow and what we don't- and seem undecided yourself. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, only sharing my experiences and personal expectations of a horse. So I'm not sure why this is beginning to feel like a debate when you seem to have no position yet?

[SweetSavannah]

Oh dear I was just being cheeky with that stallions/geldings thing! Don't take offence to it!

No I don't have a stance on it at the moment which is why I'm asking you guys, but I know the owner does have a stance and if I'm going to be doing something different to what he's been doing I better have a good reason behind it.

So talking and showing off while being lead is NOT desirable because it "can" escalate to other bad behaviours, and also means the horse isn't 100% focused on you???

But if he's still following you then isn't he still doing what you're asking and therefore must be paying attention to you?

[Jenje!]

Originally Posted by SweetSavannah

I know the owner does have a stance and if I'm going to be doing something different to what he's been doing I better have a good reason behind it.

I wasn't suggesting you do something other than what the owner wants you to do- in fact, I wouldn't recommend that at all. If you don't like the way the owner wants something done- don't handle the horse.

So talking and showing off while being lead is NOT desirable because it "can" escalate to other bad behaviours, and also means the horse isn't 100% focused on you???

Right. Can and usually does.

But if he's still following you then isn't he still doing what you're asking and therefore must be paying attention to you?

What it means is, as you said above, the horse is not 100% focused on his handler. And that's not the way I expect a stallion- or any horse- to behave.