[TrueColoursFarm]

One of my mares has come up pregnant with twins at 17 days. Both are the same size, the same shape, on the same horn, mm's apart.

The vet wants to come back on Day 24ish to either pinch one or check to see if one is regressing. He felt that anytime after Day 21 (which is today) and up to about Day 25 is within acceptable ranges.

Ask 100 people this same question and it seems like you get 100 different answers with a lot of good reasons on either side to wait or pinch as soon as you find you are dealing with twins

My vet has stated that the reason he wants to wait is that anytime you HAVE a pregnancy, you want to do whatever you can to maintain it and that a few more days wont hurt anything and by then, one of them may start to re-absorb on its own and your decision will have been made for you. He has also heard time and time again where the wrong one was pinched and the other one ends up re-absorbing as well, leaving you with nothing in the end

He also felt that in many cases, the reason the pinching was done early - at Day 15 or 16 or 17, was because if the other one WAS lost as well, the mare would be breedable again on Day 21-ish, so you hadnt lost a full cycle, whereas if you waited until Day 24 or 25, you'd miss the next cycle as well.

But - I was also told that if you have 2 stuck close together like this, in the early days, you can bounce them off each other very easily and separate one of them, whereas if you wait, you can no longer do so ...

This is the first time I have ever dealt with twins and even when client mare's have "twinned" usually its very obvious that one is on the way out, all on its own, and no intervention is required - the vet simply observes and confirms that only one is left in XX days

What do you all do in cases like this and why?

Thanks, as always!

[jedy]

IMO the reason why they're pinched at 15 or 16 is because they're not fixed and as you said can be moved apart. That is of great importance and if I have twins diagnosed at 15 d I'll ALWAYS get them pinched straight away. In your case that point is not valid anymore.As long as they're apart, I'll pinch them. I'd only wait if they're adjacent, and poking at one of them for prolonged period of time isn't successful. I often enough encounter twins and rarely have a problem. My attitude is if you want to pinch, pinch now, if wait, prepare to abort the two of them if nature doesn't do the work.

[jedy]

PS Anxious to hear what ER has to say...

[nrhareiner]

Day 24-25 is optimal. Anything really before day 30 but that is pushing it and I personally would not want to go that long. So I would stick with what your vet has said. Day 24 is well with in the safe range and will give it more time to see in one is progressing better then the other.

[CowBarbie]

Originally Posted by jedy

IMO the reason why they're pinched at 15 or 16 is because they're not fixed and as you said can be moved apart. That is of great importance and if I have twins diagnosed at 15 d I'll ALWAYS get them pinched straight away. In your case that point is not valid anymore.As long as they're apart, I'll pinch them. I'd only wait if they're adjacent, and poking at one of them for prolonged period of time isn't successful. I often enough encounter twins and rarely have a problem. My attitude is if you want to pinch, pinch now, if wait, prepare to abort the two of them if nature doesn't do the work.

This is my vets thoughts as well. Good Luck

[Equine Repro]

Originally Posted by TrueColoursFarm

One of my mares has come up pregnant with twins at 17 days. Both are the same size, the same shape, on the same horn, mm's apart.

First and foremost, twins is the main reason I like to check at 14 days. At 17 days, they are fixed and you don't have the option of separating them and moving them apart.

The vet wants to come back on Day 24ish to either pinch one or check to see if one is regressing. He felt that anytime after Day 21 (which is today) and up to about Day 25 is within acceptable ranges.

You want to be sure that the problem is resolved by day 30. After that date, the endometrial cups begin to form and you're done with the breeding season as the mare will probably not return to estrus for another 60 to 90 days once they have formed.

My vet has stated that the reason he wants to wait is that anytime you HAVE a pregnancy, you want to do whatever you can to maintain it and that a few more days wont hurt anything and by then, one of them may start to re-absorb on its own and your decision will have been made for you. He has also heard time and time again where the wrong one was pinched and the other one ends up re-absorbing as well, leaving you with nothing in the end

At this stage of the game, waiting a few days won't hurt. ideally, you want to check earlier so that you have the option of separating them. After day 17, it's not even an option.

He also felt that in many cases, the reason the pinching was done early - at Day 15 or 16 or 17, was because if the other one WAS lost as well, the mare would be breedable again on Day 21-ish, so you hadnt lost a full cycle, whereas if you waited until Day 24 or 25, you'd miss the next cycle as well.

Unfortunately, that's not entirely correct. You check earlier and pinch earlier due to the mobility of embryo. And, when you do have an EED (early embryonic loss) it delays the mare's return to estrus, depending on when it was lost.

But - I was also told that if you have 2 stuck close together like this, in the early days, you can bounce them off each other very easily and separate one of them, whereas if you wait, you can no longer do so ...

See above. They don't "bounce" off of each other. As part of early pregnancy recognition, the conceptus MUST travel throughout the uterus. Any impedement to that ability will result in the mare not recognizing that she is pregnant and her return to estrus.

What do you all do in cases like this and why?

You are now at a position in the pregnancy where your options are limited. I personally wouldn't have waited until day 17 to check. I start checking at day 12 ESPECIALLY if I know I had a double ovulation. If I find that I have a twin pregnancy at that point, I immediately pinch one. If they are adjacent to each other, simply waiting a few minutes and go back in they will generally have traveled apart. If not, I can use the ultrasound probe to gently separate them. By waiting until so late, you now either have to wait and hope that one will terminate on its own, or you will have to reduce one and hope that it doesn't result in the other being damaged and terminated as well. Personally, I would probably wait until day 29 or 30, check at that point. If they are still both alive and thriving, I would attempt to reduce one with the realization that there will be a very good possiblity that the other will not survive as well.

Good luck!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine-Reproduction.com, LLC
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[TrueColoursFarm]

Thanks as always Kathy - very very much

Unfortunately in this case I didnt know that I HAD a double ovulation. The mare was breedable on her foal heat for the first time ever, everything lined up perfectly, in 7 pregnancies she had never double ovulated or had twins even once. We had 3 mares to check - Friday was too soon, Monday was perfect for all of them and twins didnt even enter my mind to be very honest

The vet is coming on Monday 6th - at 23 days. I pray that we see regression of that follicle then and pinching isnt necessary. When he comes back out on the 10th she will be at 27 days and I am hoping again, that one is completely gone at that stage or well on its way out ...

Thanks again

[Blondehorse]

My mare had twins, but we didn't find them until she was over 30 days. The vet said that since it was so late, pinching one might cause the other to die as well, but he went ahead and did it, put her on Regumate, and we gave her Banamine for a few days to block prostaglandins (I think I'm remembering right what we did). She kept the pregnancy, and just had a healthy colt for me last week!

Hope all goes well with your mare!

[Lou3]

Personally in that situation I would have asked the vet to pinch both there and then and rebred on the next cycle.

[Stormyheart6160]

OK....breeding is not my thing, and I don't understand why anyone would want to "pinch" a twin. Is there some danger involved if the mare has twins? I know I've heard of a few mares that had twins....one would either be born dead....or, die shortly after birth....or, be smaller than the other foal, and require extra care.

Is this a "precautionary" procedure? Could someone explain it to me?