[Aricia]

I see it in the dog world as well... people crossing breed and naming them conjugations of the two breeds.

They are NOT breeds per se, and I think its rather silly, personally. lol! Just an offshoot of an observation of another thread here, the posting abot the "Quaresian" or whathaveyou.

Like you see those dogs out there, Golden Doodles... Uh, thats a mutt. Retriever and poodle cross, but people are BUYING these buggers at exhorbitant prices!!

I am just ranting about either the gullibility of people...or something... heh.

Carry on,
Me

[mustang_dodger]

there are horses that are crossed and are called by the names they are crossed with.
like:
morgan/arabian:morab
qh/arabian:quarb
paint/appaloosaintaloosa
tb/qh:appendix

those are a few i know.

[mustang_dodger]

oops that one is suppose to be pintaloosa.

[sirius-dressage]

I think it is more acceptable in the purebred horse world to have a mixed breed and call it by a shortened name, Morab/Quarab, than it is in the purebred dog world. Some people actually believe that their Peke-pom or Cocka-poo are actual breeds, which is only perpetuated by backyard breeders lieing through their teeth. They are therefore tempted to spend rediculous amounts of money on these mutts, thinking they are getting something of quality breeding because it's cute. The Cocka-poo actually has a very wide fan base, so much so that they are trying to get it recognized in some kind of legit. club as a separate breed. Unfortuabnately, until the breed shows a very firm strain of dogs with a true standard (meaning, you can look at five of them and they all look generally the same), they are very unlikely to be recognized by the AKC, CKC (for those who don't know, this can stand for the Canadian Kennel Club or the Continental Kennel Club. The Canadian Kennel Club is the only legit club of teh two, the Cont. Kennel Club will register anything and if you are buying a dog with this registration for more than it should be worth, beware that that is the intention of the breeder, to register it with something so you will think it is worth more.), UKC, or any other actual club.

Anywho, I could go on and on about backyard breeders. It's the same with you going into the paper and paying $500-1000 for any purebred you might find in there. The prices are rediculous compared to the quality of dog you are getting (i.e. the parents are not generally tested for genetic diseases and many people end up with dogs with dysplastic hips, luxating pattellas, eye and hearing problems). You can go to a breed rescue (and almost all AKC recognized breeds have rescues in most of the 50 states) or the shelter and get the same quality, if not better for much less money. The only time I would pay that amount of money is for a show prospect from a reputable breeder who has dogs currently competing and winning in the ring and who genuinely has a desire to better the breed.

But, yeah, I think in horses it is much more common, and it's different with dogs. The "mixed" breeds actually are quite popular, as they combine traits of both breeds and make great performance horses.

[iluvironcliff]

Great post sirius!

[sirius-dressage]

Thank you. Purebred dogs and showing is my other love besides horses. I've been burned a few too many times by pets stores and backyard breeders...and I see it all the time, people making the same mistakes I did...it took me a long time to learn my lesson.

[Friesiangirl]

don''t forget Morassian (friesian/morgan cross)

[Borlina]

That's a good post.


The mixture of crosses from unregistered and registered horses has bothered me in the respect that the NEW breed is called the best on the earth and called a breed- never mind it IS a mutt and does not yet have set genetic characteristics that make it a breed.
It's a cross and has a long way to go to be a breed.
Genetically speaking that according to my genetics Prof (I'm a long time from college, but I still write genetics or color genetics in Arabians) takes 10 generations to set a characteristic or homozygosity. If you breed out of that homozygosity you no longer have a "breed with set characteristics.
Say you now have a "breed" you have bred for over ten generations without adding other breeds you have set your type.
Once your genetics are characteristically set and you breed one back to something else you break the homozygosity or dominence of set characteristics, but even though the strong or dominent characteristics should show through it is no longer the breed you had.
The QH is an excellent example. Far more than ten generations of trail drives and hard cattle work they had developed a horse which became the quarter horse . He was a type B muscle quick sprinter designed for cattle work.
A very distinctive breed of horse with a very distinctive job.
Then about 20 years ago they bred in the American throughbred, a horse which is based on Type A muscle from it's three (4 actually) Arabian forebears .
The "Throughbred" is from the English mare and the English Arabian, then called "Thorobred" and designed for longer running.
The terms "throughbred" (today's race horse) and the "Throbred" (the purebred Arabian) makes historical and Jockey club research hard to comb through since both were registered with the Jockey clubs of England and America.
The quarter horse characteristics from the original then changed dramatically when the throughbred was introduced because of the stronger genetic pool the throughbred carries.
(I might have type "A" and type "B" mixed up. didn't consult my notes.)

A lot of good breeders are going back to the old foundation QH bloodlines and reproducing them in order not to lose the original horse.


It ain't nothing til it is something or something like that.

On the Morab, Anglo, etc. those are legitimate registered partbred Arabians with the Arabian Horse association.
However, those are acceptable as the one half of the part must be purebred Arabian.
The AHA also puts the percentage of Purebred on the papers- 1/2, 3/4, 7/8, 15/16 and so on.
Pintabians are purebred Arabians that carry the rabiciano gene (spots)
NSH, or National Show horses CAN also be a partbred Arabian, but they are being bred to promote the spots.
Some are distintly spotted.
This I'm not sure, but i think they have a partbred version that actually has a pinto horse mixture and a purebred version where they breed only purebred Rabiciano.
That I would have to check into because I have no interest. (I breed black Polish/Blunt Crabbets when I ever breed and stick to performance not halter)

NSH's (National Show Horses) are not registerable in the AHA unless they are actually 1/2 arabian. When they go to the 3/4 Saddlebred-1/4 arabian they go into the NSH registry alone.

To further confuse us AHA now has a Sportshorse division. So I haven't heard if we are going to have partbred warmblood. HMMMM! Think of the names that could be??

Pat

Originally Posted by sirius-dressage

I think it is more acceptable in the purebred horse world to have a mixed breed and call it by a shortened name, Morab/Quarab, than it is in the purebred dog world. Some people actually believe that their Peke-pom or Cocka-poo are actual breeds, which is only perpetuated by backyard breeders lieing through their teeth. They are therefore tempted to spend rediculous amounts of money on these mutts, thinking they are getting something of quality breeding because it's cute. The Cocka-poo actually has a very wide fan base, so much so that they are trying to get it recognized in some kind of legit. club as a separate breed. Unfortuabnately, until the breed shows a very firm strain of dogs with a true standard (meaning, you can look at five of them and they all look generally the same), they are very unlikely to be recognized by the AKC, CKC (for those who don't know, this can stand for the Canadian Kennel Club or the Continental Kennel Club. The Canadian Kennel Club is the only legit club of teh two, the Cont. Kennel Club will register anything and if you are buying a dog with this registration for more than it should be worth, beware that that is the intention of the breeder, to register it with something so you will think it is worth more.), UKC, or any other actual club.

Anywho, I could go on and on about backyard breeders. It's the same with you going into the paper and paying $500-1000 for any purebred you might find in there. The prices are rediculous compared to the quality of dog you are getting (i.e. the parents are not generally tested for genetic diseases and many people end up with dogs with dysplastic hips, luxating pattellas, eye and hearing problems). You can go to a breed rescue (and almost all AKC recognized breeds have rescues in most of the 50 states) or the shelter and get the same quality, if not better for much less money. The only time I would pay that amount of money is for a show prospect from a reputable breeder who has dogs currently competing and winning in the ring and who genuinely has a desire to better the breed.

But, yeah, I think in horses it is much more common, and it's different with dogs. The "mixed" breeds actually are quite popular, as they combine traits of both breeds and make great performance horses.

[Lindsayanne]

Crosses make great horses, but there is a difference between a common cross and a breed. By definition, a breed is is "a group of organisms having common ancestors and certain distinguishable characteristics"

No matter how common the cross (appendix quarter horse, for example) it is not a new breed. It is only accurate to call a new cross a breed after the cross has been established in one specific gene pool, and that gene pool has propagated, without outside influence, for several generations. So technically an appendix quarter horse could really only be a true breed if it's relatives were appendix quarter horses, on all sides of the pedigree, for 10+ generations- no full QHs, no full TBs.

For example, in dogs- a "labradoodle" (poodle lab cross) is NOT a real breed because and ancestors aren't common- it's just a mix. But in Australia a group of breeders bred a group of crosses with desired characterisitcs, then used only those and carefully culled the best of the best from those litters and rebred, etc until the lab poodle crosses had been so intermeshed that they could claim to have common anscestors and there was no variation among the characteristics of a litter and thus are now a breed.

I love crossbred horses, but I disagree with giving them designer names.

[BestofPrincess]

arabians carry the sabiano gene more than the Rabiciano gene, for instance look at Khemo Sabi, he carried the sabiano gene and pased it on to Kartoon Klassic, who is known for his white/bald face.

On the Morab, Anglo, etc. those are legitimate registered partbred Arabians with the Arabian Horse association.
However, those are acceptable as the one half of the part must be purebred Arabian.
The AHA also puts the percentage of Purebred on the papers- 1/2, 3/4, 7/8, 15/16 and so on.
Pintabians are purebred Arabians that carry the rabiciano gene (spots)
NSH, or National Show horses CAN also be a partbred Arabian, but they are being bred to promote the spots.
Some are distintly spotted.
This I'm not sure, but i think they have a partbred version that actually has a pinto horse mixture and a purebred version where they breed only purebred Rabiciano.
That I would have to check into because I have no interest. (I breed black Polish/Blunt Crabbets when I ever breed and stick to performance not halter)

The reason why people dont simply call these crosses mutts is because they are not just mutts! They are usually breed for specific traits, they are not a breed, but they are more than a mutt, because they have registered known parents. Im not going to call my mare a mutt when she is double registered, as a pinto and a half arab, she has a long history of amazing arabs in her blood, that is some thing to be proud of not ignored by simply calling her a mutt. That would not be fair to her ancestors, because they made her what she is. Same with my colt, he is a registered half friesian, and that is some thing to be proud of, Now Im not going to go around calling him a Friequarbian.... that would be nuts. But I will not just call him a mutt, just like his mom he has a long history of Unforgetable arabians, he also carries the blood of some of the most amazing horses I have ever meet, and that is some thing that should not be ignored. He looks more like a friesian than most crosses, and it should not be just discarded like yesterdays trash. When people see him they ask me if I am going to keep him intact, and I have to explane to them that I wont because he is too much of a cross, but they are asking me this about my 4month old colt! But calling him a mutt is denying him of his heritage, he knows who he is and he carries his head high and proud, and so do I, I wont call him a mutt, but he is my friesian cross, and he is my dreams come true, it took 2 years if not more for it to become real. And no matter what he is not a mutt, he is a friesian cross, because both of his parents are registered, and both have their own leniage to be proud of.