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Discuss What colour is this mare? at the Horse Breeding forum - Horse Breeding Forums.

She's a 5 year old paint that I'm training, just curious as to her exact ...
  1. #1
    Senior Member gypsy84's Avatar
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    What colour is this mare?

    She's a 5 year old paint that I'm training, just curious as to her exact colour/pattern and wanted some expert opinions Both eyes are brown.








  2. #2
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    Splash frame and maybe tobiano, but my gut is no.

    ETA:Oh and sabino too. BTW do you happen to have a pedigree for him? Id love to see it.
    Ariel: This women, that broke your heart. Do you still love her?
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  3. #3
    Senior Member+ taliacristianna's Avatar
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    I'm guessing Splash, Sabino, Frame, and Tobiano.

    There's something about the way the black outlines her hind end that reminds me of tobiano. It really looks like her color genes are at war with each other, hence the 50/50 white to solid lower legs.

    I LOVE the black "socks"!

    She's really striking. She looks pretty sturdy too.
    Last edited by taliacristianna; 09-21-2008 at 12:19 PM.
    Breeder of Fine Paints and Quarter Horses

  4. #4
    Senior Member+ LilEquineLuva's Avatar
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    My mom bought a paint stallion a long time ago from Canada, I think maybe from Manitoba, that looked a LOT like that horse in the conformation, expression, and the patterning was very similar as well. I'd be VERY interested in seeing a pedigree on her, just for curiosity.

    That stallion wasn't exactly my favorite, but he did have a temperament TO DIE FOR. He produced babies that looked a lot like him, and my mother moved on to something else and sold him. I'd be willing to bet more that a buck that she is a cousin/sister/neice/whatever.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member A.Q.H.A.'s Avatar
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    SHE LOOKS LIKE A BLACK BASED (EE) HORSE WITH A combination OF tobiano and Overo pattern, so I WOULD SAY SHE IS A BLACK TOVERO
    THE INFORMATION BELOW MAY HELP


    Combination Paint patterns
    While each of the Paint patterns--tobiano, frame overo, sabino and splashed white--can mark a horse on its own, many horses sport combinations of these. When these patterns combine, the result is a horse with a pattern that can sometimes be difficult to classify.

    Any combination is going to be marked with white from all the patterns going into the combination. That is, the combinations pick up the white from each of the components and add them together so that wherever any of the component patterns would have been white, so is the combination.
    Many of the combinations go by the term "tovero," because most are tobiano plus one of the other patterns. Coming up with names for each specific combination is fun and can yield some fun-sounding names, but few of these communicate the specific combination very well.
    The combination patterns have a few very important consequences for the Paint Horse breed.
    One consequence of combinations is that they may well not be correctly identified, and so may be unwisely used in a breeding program. The frame overo pattern, with its association to lethal white foals, should probably only be present in one parent of a mating. This strategy avoids lethal white foals.
    Accurately identifying frame/sabino combinations can be very difficult in some cases, and most horses with this combination are identified as sabinos. The addition of frame, though, means the addition of the potential to produce lethal white foals if mated to another frame horse.
    Another consequence of accurate identification of combinations is increased spot production.
    A combination of tobiano and frame (or tovero), if mated to solid colored horses, will produce about 25 percent tobianos, 25 percent frames, 25 percent tobiano/frame combinations, and 25 percent solid foals. The color production goes from 50 percent for most spotted heterozygotes to 75 percent. If we add splashed white to the combination, we probably end up with a very white horse, but the spot production jumps to about 87 percent, with many interesting combinations in the foal crop. The combination horses, therefore, can be a good addition to a breeding program.




    Black
    entire coat, including muzzle, flanks and legs, are black; color may fade when exposed to the sun; could have rusty tinge during certain times of the year; early foals may be an overall mousy gray, then shed to black.
    Brown
    body color brown or black, with light areas at muzzle, eyes, flank and inside upper legs; mane and tail usually black.

    Tovero
    (pronounced: tow vair' oh)
    Dark pigmentation around the ears, which may expand to cover the forehead and/or eyes.

    Chest spot(s) in varying sizes. These may also extend up the neck.
    Flank spot(s) ranging in size. These are often accompanied by smaller spots that extend forward across the barrel, and up over the loin.
    Spots, varying in size, at the base of the tail.

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsy84 View Post
    She's a 5 year old paint that I'm training, just curious as to her exact colour/pattern and wanted some expert opinions Both eyes are brown.








  6. #6
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    Having the frame overo gene is not based on the amount of white or lack of white on a horse but the genetic makeup under the coat so to speak. There are solid frame overos with very little to no white. There are slipped tobianos that have a few white spots on the legs and that is it. Some patterns can be told by looks and other patterns must be found by testing. LWO is one that is only for sure with testing.

    This one looks obviously frame and sabino... will wait for pedigree to decide on tobiano.
    Quote Originally Posted by Circle C View Post
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  7. #7
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    Black overo. Splash and frame. I find tobiano highly unlikely.

    ACC

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    Senior Member Jungle_cat's Avatar
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    Tobiano is not likely or the legs would be white and the butt would be white - but those are dark. I agree on the splash and frame overo combo.

  9. #9
    Senior Member A.Q.H.A.'s Avatar
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    THE HORSE IN QUESTION DISPLAYS A Combination OF Paint patterns

    ( I DO NOT SEE The sabino pattern )
    Sabino spotting
    The sabino pattern is nearly as common in Paints as the frame overo and tobiano patterns. The sabino pattern is usually the one called "overo" in South America, so terminology is confusing at best.

    The term "sabino" in literal Spanish means pale or speckled, and in Mexico and Argentina this term is used to describe fleabitten grey horses, or other mottled patterns. In Europe, and increasingly in the United States, sabino is used to describe a unique and interesting pattern of white spotting in horses.
    Sabino horses usually have four white feet and white legs. The white usually extends up the legs in ragged patches, and then extends onto the horse's body from the belly. The head is usually fairly white, and the eyes are commonly blue.
    Many sabino horses have eyes that are partially blue and partially brown. Flecks, patches and roan areas are common on sabinos, in contrast to the frame overos that are usually more crisply marked. Sabino occurs in a large number of breeds worldwide

    THIS HORSE DOES DISPLAY OVERO TRAITS
    THE OVERO SIM'S WILL BE HIGHLIGHTED IN RED

    Overo
    (pronounced: oh vair' oh)
    The white usually will not cross the back of the horse between its withers and its tail.
    Generally, at least one and often all four legs are dark.
    Generally, the white is irregular, and is rather scattered or splashy.
    Head markings are distinctive, often bald-faced, apron-faced or bonnet-faced.

    An overo may be either predominantly dark or white.
    The tail is usually one color.



    THIS HORSE ALSO DISPLAYS TOBIANO TRAITS,THE TOBIANO TRAITS WILL BE HIGHLIGHTED IN RED :

    Tobiano
    (pronounced: tow be yah' no)
    The dark color usually covers one or both flanks.
    Generally, all four legs are white, at least below the hocks and knees.
    Generally, the spots are regular and distinct as ovals or round patterns that extend down over the neck and chest, giving the appearance of a shield.
    Head markings are like those of a solid-colored horse--solid, or with a blaze, strip, star or snip.
    A tobiano may be either predominantly dark or white.
    The tail is often two colors.

    REGUARDING HE FRAME PATTERN PLEASE READ THIS :



    Frame overo spotting
    Frame overo is one of the overo patterns. The name "frame" refers to the usual appearance, which is of white patches centered in the body and neck and framed by colored areas around them.
    The usual frame pattern has a horizontal arrangement, and does not cross the topline as does tobiano. The head is usually quite extensively marked with white, and the eyes are commonly blue.
    The feet and legs of frame overos are usually dark, although white feet and minor white leg marks are as common on frame overos as they are on nonspotted horses. The white areas on frame overos are usually crisply and cleanly delineated from the colored areas, although some have a halo or shadow of pigmented skin under white hair directly at the boundary.
    The frame overo pattern occurs in a limited range of horse breeds. It seems to appear only in breeds that have Spanish ancestry, including the Paint Horse.
    The genetics of frame overo has only recently been documented. Frame overo behaves as a dominant gene. It is common to mate frame overo horses to nonspotted horses, and about half of the foals come out spotted.
    On many occasions, though, there are records of frame overos being produced by two nonspotted parents. This is typical of a recessive gene, and it is not logical to have both a recessive and a dominant control over the same pattern. A look at the parents of these "cropouts" sometimes reveals that one or the other is oddly marked. These oddly marked horses usually have bald faces but colored feet, which is a very unusual combination in horses.
    Some of these horses are genetically frame overo, but have failed to get a body spot. They are essentially very dark frame overos--so dark that the spots are all gone from the body. They still have the gene, however, and can still produce frame overo-spotted offspring.
    This phenomenon may not account for all the cropouts. For example, the occurrence of the frame overo pattern in the Thoroughbred breed (the racehorse Tri Chrome, for instance) seem to be new examples of this gene in a breed that previously did not have it.
    Waiting to see what these cropouts produce will be the final test. Because previous cropouts have reproduced as if they had a dominant gene, there is no reason to expect any differently from the more recent spotted cropouts from solid-colored parents.
    At the whiter extreme, the frame overo pattern is responsible for lethal white foals. It is the pattern most closely associated with these foals.
    Recent characterization of the gene involved in the lethal white foals has confirmed that the foals with two doses of the gene are white, and die soon after birth from gut innervation abnormalities. Horses with only one dose are frame overos, and survive. This documentation is important for breeders of Paint Horses. With DNA tests now available for the frame gene (and the lethal white foals that can accompany it) it is possible to test breeding horses. Those with the gene can be mated to horses without it, resulting in about half frame and half nonspotted foals, but avoiding completely the production of lethal white foals.



    IN CONCLUSION IT IS GOOD TO KEEP THIS IN MIND:





    Combination Paint patterns
    While each of the Paint patterns--tobiano, frame overo, sabino and splashed white--can mark a horse on its own, many horses sport combinations of these. When these patterns combine, the result is a horse with a pattern that can sometimes be difficult to classify.

    Any combination is going to be marked with white from all the patterns going into the combination. That is, the combinations pick up the white from each of the components and add them together so that wherever any of the component patterns would have been white, so is the combination.
    Many of the combinations go by the term "tovero," because most are tobiano plus one of the other patterns. Coming up with names for each specific combination is fun and can yield some fun-sounding names, but few of these communicate the specific combination very well.
    The combination patterns have a few very important consequences for the Paint Horse breed.
    One consequence of combinations is that they may well not be correctly identified, and so may be unwisely used in a breeding program. The frame overo pattern, with its association to lethal white foals, should probably only be present in one parent of a mating. This strategy avoids lethal white foals.
    Accurately identifying frame/sabino combinations can be very difficult in some cases, and most horses with this combination are identified as sabinos. The addition of frame, though, means the addition of the potential to produce lethal white foals if mated to another frame horse.
    Another consequence of accurate identification of combinations is increased spot production.
    A combination of tobiano and frame (or tovero), if mated to solid colored horses, will produce about 25 percent tobianos, 25 percent frames, 25 percent tobiano/frame combinations, and 25 percent solid foals. The color production goes from 50 percent for most spotted heterozygotes to 75 percent. If we add splashed white to the combination, we probably end up with a very white horse, but the spot production jumps to about 87 percent, with many interesting combinations in the foal crop. The combination horses, therefore, can be a good addition to a breeding program.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.Q.H.A. View Post
    THE HORSE IN QUESTION DISPLAYS A Combination OF Paint patterns

    ( I DO NOT SEE The sabino pattern )
    Sabino spotting
    The sabino pattern is nearly as common in Paints as the frame overo and tobiano patterns. The sabino pattern is usually the one called "overo" in South America, so terminology is confusing at best.

    The term "sabino" in literal Spanish means pale or speckled, and in Mexico and Argentina this term is used to describe fleabitten grey horses, or other mottled patterns. In Europe, and increasingly in the United States, sabino is used to describe a unique and interesting pattern of white spotting in horses.
    Sabino horses usually have four white feet and white legs. The white usually extends up the legs in ragged patches, and then extends onto the horse's body from the belly. The head is usually fairly white, and the eyes are commonly blue.
    Many sabino horses have eyes that are partially blue and partially brown. Flecks, patches and roan areas are common on sabinos, in contrast to the frame overos that are usually more crisply marked. Sabino occurs in a large number of breeds worldwide

    THIS HORSE DOES DISPLAY OVERO TRAITS
    THE OVERO SIM'S WILL BE HIGHLIGHTED IN RED

    Overo
    (pronounced: oh vair' oh)
    The white usually will not cross the back of the horse between its withers and its tail.
    Generally, at least one and often all four legs are dark.
    Generally, the white is irregular, and is rather scattered or splashy.
    Head markings are distinctive, often bald-faced, apron-faced or bonnet-faced.

    An overo may be either predominantly dark or white.
    The tail is usually one color.



    THIS HORSE ALSO DISPLAYS TOBIANO TRAITS,THE TOBIANO TRAITS WILL BE HIGHLIGHTED IN RED :

    Tobiano
    (pronounced: tow be yah' no)
    The dark color usually covers one or both flanks.
    Generally, all four legs are white, at least below the hocks and knees.
    Generally, the spots are regular and distinct as ovals or round patterns that extend down over the neck and chest, giving the appearance of a shield.
    Head markings are like those of a solid-colored horse--solid, or with a blaze, strip, star or snip.
    A tobiano may be either predominantly dark or white.
    The tail is often two colors.

    REGUARDING HE FRAME PATTERN PLEASE READ THIS :



    Frame overo spotting
    Frame overo is one of the overo patterns. The name "frame" refers to the usual appearance, which is of white patches centered in the body and neck and framed by colored areas around them.
    The usual frame pattern has a horizontal arrangement, and does not cross the topline as does tobiano. The head is usually quite extensively marked with white, and the eyes are commonly blue.
    The feet and legs of frame overos are usually dark, although white feet and minor white leg marks are as common on frame overos as they are on nonspotted horses. The white areas on frame overos are usually crisply and cleanly delineated from the colored areas, although some have a halo or shadow of pigmented skin under white hair directly at the boundary.
    The frame overo pattern occurs in a limited range of horse breeds. It seems to appear only in breeds that have Spanish ancestry, including the Paint Horse.
    The genetics of frame overo has only recently been documented. Frame overo behaves as a dominant gene. It is common to mate frame overo horses to nonspotted horses, and about half of the foals come out spotted.
    On many occasions, though, there are records of frame overos being produced by two nonspotted parents. This is typical of a recessive gene, and it is not logical to have both a recessive and a dominant control over the same pattern. A look at the parents of these "cropouts" sometimes reveals that one or the other is oddly marked. These oddly marked horses usually have bald faces but colored feet, which is a very unusual combination in horses.
    Some of these horses are genetically frame overo, but have failed to get a body spot. They are essentially very dark frame overos--so dark that the spots are all gone from the body. They still have the gene, however, and can still produce frame overo-spotted offspring.
    This phenomenon may not account for all the cropouts. For example, the occurrence of the frame overo pattern in the Thoroughbred breed (the racehorse Tri Chrome, for instance) seem to be new examples of this gene in a breed that previously did not have it.
    Waiting to see what these cropouts produce will be the final test. Because previous cropouts have reproduced as if they had a dominant gene, there is no reason to expect any differently from the more recent spotted cropouts from solid-colored parents.
    At the whiter extreme, the frame overo pattern is responsible for lethal white foals. It is the pattern most closely associated with these foals.
    Recent characterization of the gene involved in the lethal white foals has confirmed that the foals with two doses of the gene are white, and die soon after birth from gut innervation abnormalities. Horses with only one dose are frame overos, and survive. This documentation is important for breeders of Paint Horses. With DNA tests now available for the frame gene (and the lethal white foals that can accompany it) it is possible to test breeding horses. Those with the gene can be mated to horses without it, resulting in about half frame and half nonspotted foals, but avoiding completely the production of lethal white foals.



    IN CONCLUSION IT IS GOOD TO KEEP THIS IN MIND:





    Combination Paint patterns
    While each of the Paint patterns--tobiano, frame overo, sabino and splashed white--can mark a horse on its own, many horses sport combinations of these. When these patterns combine, the result is a horse with a pattern that can sometimes be difficult to classify.

    Any combination is going to be marked with white from all the patterns going into the combination. That is, the combinations pick up the white from each of the components and add them together so that wherever any of the component patterns would have been white, so is the combination.
    Many of the combinations go by the term "tovero," because most are tobiano plus one of the other patterns. Coming up with names for each specific combination is fun and can yield some fun-sounding names, but few of these communicate the specific combination very well.
    The combination patterns have a few very important consequences for the Paint Horse breed.
    One consequence of combinations is that they may well not be correctly identified, and so may be unwisely used in a breeding program. The frame overo pattern, with its association to lethal white foals, should probably only be present in one parent of a mating. This strategy avoids lethal white foals.
    Accurately identifying frame/sabino combinations can be very difficult in some cases, and most horses with this combination are identified as sabinos. The addition of frame, though, means the addition of the potential to produce lethal white foals if mated to another frame horse.
    Another consequence of accurate identification of combinations is increased spot production.
    A combination of tobiano and frame (or tovero), if mated to solid colored horses, will produce about 25 percent tobianos, 25 percent frames, 25 percent tobiano/frame combinations, and 25 percent solid foals. The color production goes from 50 percent for most spotted heterozygotes to 75 percent. If we add splashed white to the combination, we probably end up with a very white horse, but the spot production jumps to about 87 percent, with many interesting combinations in the foal crop. The combination horses, therefore, can be a good addition to a breeding program.
    Wanna do some more copy and pasting or would you like to have your own thoughts for a change?
    Ariel: This women, that broke your heart. Do you still love her?
    Hook: Yes
    Ariel: Then swear to me on her name.
    Hook: I swear on Emma Swan.

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