[angie j]

Originally Posted by allison finch

Bred to go low? just because it can be bred, doesn't mean it should be.
I don't think it is natural. You don't see this kind of movement in the wild. ..... It is the battle of seeing how extreme it can get, IMHO.

Well, that's kind of an extreme statement. I have a Walker and I'm pretty sure that is breeding to create a previously 'unnatural' movement.
My Saddlebred is the same. Try to get her to walk without a snap in her step... impossible.

Are there 'extremes' in these breeds as well? Sure are, but, should we stop breeding for a movement and accentuating it, if the animals arent being physicaly harmed? I don't think that would appeal to the masses.

[GotaDunQH]

Originally Posted by allison finch

Bred to go low? just because it can be bred, doesn't mean it should be.

I don't think it is natural. You don't see this kind of movement in the wild. You see passage, and most upper dressage movements in wild horses, but not the WP method of movement. Just because it can be "produced" doesn't mean it should. It is the battle of seeing how extreme it can get, IMHO.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, which says to me...you know nothing about WP and don't want to learn. But that's ok, although it's always a good thing to keep an open mind with ALL disciplines and trying to learn as much as you can. And as for horses in the wild, there is NO comparison to ANY of our domesticated horses compared to wild ones....so that argument doesn't fly. Once us humans got involved in producing/breeding horses OUR WAY, that argument goes out the window. Are you going to tell me a wild horse is piaffing it's brain out, collected and such, while roaming the range? Right...LOL. I guess you need to go to a WP breeding facility and watch the way these babies move around a paddock pasture, then maybe you would learn something. But then again, you have already formed a decision without gaining any knowledge, so.....

Jennifer

[GotaDunQH]

Originally Posted by Berlunz

You wont see passage or upper dressage movements in the wild. You might see it in domesticated horses who have it bred into them but you wont ever see a mustang doing a piaffe. As for how they are bred, you do realize that "Natural" and "Wild" horses have the worst builds out there, don't you? What a horse faces as a wild animal and what they face as a domestic pet are two very different things. Wild horses have thicker and shorter necks, very long backs and huge chests with tiny hips and are often very short as well. They have no need to be built to cary a person and thats what a lot of this boils down too. How a horse reacts and behaves in the field may seem similar (doing a turn or running) but it is not the same as when being ridden.

When you ride a horse you encourage them to use their hind legs to push through their back and lift so they can properly carry around someone without doing damage to their backs. Some horses have heads that tie in higher, others lower. You can always tell when its a faked headset, the best thing you can do is not worry about the head and just work on the body, the neck and head often take care of themselves on their own. QH are bred to have their necks tie in lower, this is not something genetically or physically dangerous. It is also not "limiting" in any way shape or form, it just different.

All I can say is...thank you for this post! I'm tired of wild/domesticated comparisons...simply can not be done.

Jennifer

[allison finch]

Getting back to the original posters question, and away from the personal attacks (on both sides);

http://www.horseshowcentral.com/flex...pleasure/444/1

What I have been trying, albeit poorly, to say.

[GotaDunQH]

Originally Posted by allison finch

Getting back to the original posters question, and away from the personal attacks (on both sides);

http://www.horseshowcentral.com/flex...pleasure/444/1

What I have been trying, albeit poorly, to say.

I checked out that site and have no clue as to who the writer is, never heard of him. I've been showing WP on the AQHA circuit about 15 years now, sat on AQHA's National Show Committee for years (and recently.....5 years), and this guy is not on the radar. Also wanted to point out that some things were accurate, but there was also many inaccuracies in his article, and not from just my "opinion" standpoint, but the actual rules, how a class is run, and the way a horse performs in a class. I would say that article was a behind a couple years.

Jennifer

[CJnBucksMom]

Here is my two cents, for what it's worth, and some questions I have.

First off, in the past I have been around MANY WP training barns who had horses showing at Congress and World. I have ridden WP horses who have ROM'd in WP (not under me, I have no interest in showing it but I have ridden horses who are good WP horses) etc.

Now, I will say this. Horses that are bred for WP, SOME of them will move slowly like this in the field, at liberty. It is their way of travel and how they are bred.

However, I'm getting tired of hearing many people say that there are not horses with their heads far too low, or who are peanut rolling, still winning. There are and there should not be. There SHOULD be a difference (aside from moving out more) between a HUS horse and a WP horse. You will never see a true HUNTER with it's head very low. Hunters are supposed to be able to jump, right? How many hunters or jumpers do you see at shows outside of AQHA who travel with their head like that?

Moreso, I will NEVER be convinced that NONE of the trainers at the higher levels of competition are see sawing on their faces to get them into this frame because I see it in warm up rings at top levels and done by top level trainers on a CONSTANT basis and YES by people who are winning. And I am not making this up, I will take video at the next AQHA show I go to watch. I guarantee that 98% of people will be riding around with broken wrists sawing on their horses face. HUS riders will be riding around doing the same thing, with their hands near the horses withers spurring every time they sit down in their post. What does that accomplish? If there's a better way to do it why isn't it being done? IF it's natural why all the sawing on the face, training forks etc?

If people want these things to stop being said then people at the top need to stop doing it and judges need to stop letting these horses win. JMHO. It won't ever change because I have seen it with my own eyes and cannot be convinced otherwise of something I personally see.

[allison finch]

Can't we all get along?

Here is my favorite video of a dressage/reining pas de deux. It is great fun and shows that there is more similarity (yeah, I know....reining isn't WP) than differences. In my opinion, the western rider was the better rider, IMHO

ENJOY!!

YouTube - Fest der Pferde 2008: Klassik trifft western Smart Rattle Snake und Lausbub

[Lopinslow]

Originally Posted by GotaDunQH

I checked out that site and have no clue as to who the writer is, never heard of him. I've been showing WP on the AQHA circuit about 15 years now, sat on AQHA's National Show Committee for years (and recently.....5 years), and this guy is not on the radar. Also wanted to point out that some things were accurate, but there was also many inaccuracies in his article, and not from just my "opinion" standpoint, but the actual rules, how a class is run, and the way a horse performs in a class. I would say that article was a behind a couple years.

Jennifer

thanks.. i didn't even READ the darn thing to be honest....

and i'll have to be sure to tell my friend Jodie that the site is using her photo, probably without permission.....

[CJnBucksMom]

Originally Posted by allison finch

Can't we all get along?

Here is my favorite video of a dressage/reining pas de deux. It is great fun and shows that there is more similarity (yeah, I know....reining isn't WP) than differences. In my opinion, the western rider was the better rider, IMHO

ENJOY!!

YouTube - Fest der Pferde 2008: Klassik trifft western Smart Rattle Snake und Lausbub

I loved watching that video. So funny to see how when they switched horses each could do the movements but not with as much perfection as they could do it on their own horse in their own discipline. Just goes to show how similar but yet different they are. Great find. Definitely a new favorite as I love both disciplines.

[sdawn8806]

oh man guess i asked for this!
ok besides all the bred for it/ not bred for it, does it in the pasture or not, that really wasnt the question i asked and wasnt at all the response i was after. my original post did not have the greatest tone, so i apologize for that. this has been on my mind since i went to a 4h show a few weeks ago and saw the western pleasure horses there with their noses far below a nice level headset and barely crawling along the ground. i havent seen a lot of western pleasure done so i really am wondering if thats how its supposed to be done now, or if they really want the horses to move out a little more and their heads level? i know that it was a trend for a while there to have the peanut rollers and thats why a friend of mine stopped show her paints a APHA shows.

really not trying to bash anyones discipline, and definitely not bashing quarter horse (my horse is an appendix)