[allison finch]

Guys, you seem to think I am bashing ALL WP horses. Not so.

If all the horses were trained like the ones in the posted video, I would be all praises. They are beautiful movers. What I am against are what I can only describe as the "extreme" movers. In the 80's there was a move to rectify this problem, to much furor from the established trainers in my area. I was hoping that after 20 years, I would see a significant improvement in the horses showing. Many have improved. However, I still see the ones who, according to the rules, are moving incorrectly. And they are still winning. Tell me you guys who show WP don't see this and get upset? When this happens people would be crazy not to do this if they want to win. THAT is what I am arguing about.

As quoted from Shepard;

Horses don't naturally run around poles or barrels, they don't natually have a great dressage frame, they don't naturally passage, piaffe, or 'jog', or 'lope'.

I beg to differ. All of these are movements done in the field. running around objects, sliding stops, spins, pivots, and yes, even passage and piaffe. I am looking for some photos that I will scan. It shows a stallion turned our near a mare field. He was passaging the fence and, at one point, did a fairly nice piaffe. It was fun to watch. And, no, the mare pasture was not close, just upwind. He often carries himself in the "perfect frame" all by himself. But then, I'm not one who has to "crank" him into a frame (as dressage horses are often accused of here) anyway.

Horses walk, trot, canter, & RUN.

They carry their heads high, they carry them level, they carry them low.

What they're trained to do is another story.

exactly!!
__________________

[allison finch]

Originally Posted by lvmypnt

Oh dear.......caught without popcorn. Be right back *runs to store*

LOL!! I'll do you one better after 5:00

[Lopinslow]

If all the horses were trained like the ones in the posted video, I would be all praises. They are beautiful movers.

you are obviously basing your idea of WP horses on BAD examples.. because the horse in the video is moving like the most do at the breed shows. we RARELY see 4 beating, peanut rolling or all around BAD movers in the pleasure classes at AQHA shows.

Would it be fair or even accurate of me if i compared an open show/beginner level reining horse to an NRHA level horse? or someone jumping a few homeade jumps in their field to a grand prix level jumper?

I beg to differ. All of these are movements done in the field. running around objects, sliding stops, spins, pivots, and yes, even passage and piaffe. I am looking for some photos that I will scan. It shows a stallion turned our near a mare field. He was passaging the fence and, at one point, did a fairly nice piaffe. It was fun to watch. And, no, the mare pasture was not close, just upwind. He often carries himself in the "perfect frame" all by himself. But then, I'm not one who has to "crank" him into a frame (as dressage horses are often accused of here) anyway.

So, since these horses show natural talent to do these things on their own, how can you be so close minded to think that there are not a LOT of naturally talented western pleasure horses ALSO jogging and loping slow with that level topline on their own (before they have had any training)


Horses walk, trot, canter, & RUN.

Well, I better go and talk to my WP horses.. it's not very often at all that i've EVER seen them "Run".... even as a yearling, my Good Version x Invester gelding would lope as slow, correct and collected as ANY broke/quality western pleasure horse does under saddle

People that are so close minded to other discplines and breeds generally don't get as far in the horse world. personally I chose to keep an open mind and don't think I have ever put down someone's discpline or breed of choice. Too bad others can't do the same.

[cowgurly02]

Originally Posted by allison finch

Guys, you seem to think I am bashing ALL WP horses. Not so.

If all the horses were trained like the ones in the posted video, I would be all praises. They are beautiful movers. What I am against are what I can only describe as the "extreme" movers. In the 80's there was a move to rectify this problem, to much furor from the established trainers in my area. I was hoping that after 20 years, I would see a significant improvement in the horses showing. Many have improved. However, I still see the ones who, according to the rules, are moving incorrectly. And they are still winning. Tell me you guys who show WP don't see this and get upset? When this happens people would be crazy not to do this if they want to win. THAT is what I am arguing about.

As quoted from Shepard;

Horses don't naturally run around poles or barrels, they don't natually have a great dressage frame, they don't naturally passage, piaffe, or 'jog', or 'lope'.

I beg to differ. All of these are movements done in the field. running around objects, sliding stops, spins, pivots, and yes, even passage and piaffe. I am looking for some photos that I will scan. It shows a stallion turned our near a mare field. He was passaging the fence and, at one point, did a fairly nice piaffe. It was fun to watch. And, no, the mare pasture was not close, just upwind. He often carries himself in the "perfect frame" all by himself. But then, I'm not one who has to "crank" him into a frame (as dressage horses are often accused of here) anyway.

Horses walk, trot, canter, & RUN.

They carry their heads high, they carry them level, they carry them low.

What they're trained to do is another story.

exactly!!
__________________

Horses jog and lope in the pasture too. Exactly how a WP horse does in the show ring? Nope, but a good WP bred horse will be pretty close. From a barrel racing perspective MOST horses while out at pasture do NOT turn in the correct way to turn around a barrel. Some are close and can naturally do it and learn it easier than others, yet others are way off and much too on the front end naturally. It takes a lot of training to get a correct turn on a horse. The same with sliding stops, and even with your dressage horse who might be doing show worthy dressage maneauvers in the pasture like you claim, he was obviously TRAINED to do them first right? He didn't just one day wake up and passage down the fence with 0 training.

[KristinJ]

Is western pleasure and english pleasure essentially the same besides the equipement?

[Lopinslow]

Originally Posted by KristinJ

Is western pleasure and english pleasure essentially the same besides the equipement?

For Stock horses, you generally want the same type of movement in both Western Pleasure and Hunter under Saddle.
Flat knees, deep hocked (lots of drive), lift in the front, slow legged, rounded back with a high degree of collection with a sweepy stride.

For Western, The horse needs to be able to travel slowly and correctly, while holding that frame on a loose rein. when well done, a rider NEVER has to pick on that horses reins through all transitions, reversing directions and it will appear the rider is only a quiet passenger. (when done correctly, there is as much finesse as upper level dressage)

for Hunter under saddle, there is a much bigger/sweepier stride at the trot, yet keeping the legs slow and with a great reach. the lope is faster than a western pleasure lope, and there is a light contact on the reins.

[KristinJ]

Originally Posted by Lopinslow

For Stock horses, you generally want the same type of movement in both Western Pleasure and Hunter under Saddle.
Flat knees, deep hocked (lots of drive), lift in the front, slow legged, rounded back with a high degree of collection with a sweepy stride.

For Western, The horse needs to be able to travel slowly and correctly, while holding that frame on a loose rein. when well done, a rider NEVER has to pick on that horses reins through all transitions, reversing directions and it will appear the rider is only a quiet passenger. (when done correctly, there is as much finesse as upper level dressage)

for Hunter under saddle, there is a much bigger/sweepier stride at the trot, yet keeping the legs slow and with a great reach. the lope is faster than a western pleasure lope, and there is a light contact on the reins.

Thanks!! That was exactly the kind of answer I was looking for

[thespa]

AQHA revised its rules to allow head to be level, not down, and nose even a little up, and not going so painfully slow.

[Berlunz]

Originally Posted by allison finch

Bred to go low? just because it can be bred, doesn't mean it should be.

I don't think it is natural. You don't see this kind of movement in the wild. You see passage, and most upper dressage movements in wild horses, but not the WP method of movement. Just because it can be "produced" doesn't mean it should. It is the battle of seeing how extreme it can get, IMHO.

You wont see passage or upper dressage movements in the wild. You might see it in domesticated horses who have it bred into them but you wont ever see a mustang doing a piaffe. As for how they are bred, you do realize that "Natural" and "Wild" horses have the worst builds out there, don't you? What a horse faces as a wild animal and what they face as a domestic pet are two very different things. Wild horses have thicker and shorter necks, very long backs and huge chests with tiny hips and are often very short as well. They have no need to be built to cary a person and thats what a lot of this boils down too. How a horse reacts and behaves in the field may seem similar (doing a turn or running) but it is not the same as when being ridden.

When you ride a horse you encourage them to use their hind legs to push through their back and lift so they can properly carry around someone without doing damage to their backs. Some horses have heads that tie in higher, others lower. You can always tell when its a faked headset, the best thing you can do is not worry about the head and just work on the body, the neck and head often take care of themselves on their own. QH are bred to have their necks tie in lower, this is not something genetically or physically dangerous. It is also not "limiting" in any way shape or form, it just different.

[allison finch]

For lopinslow;

I never said all WP horses move poorly, just that some still do. The original post was about someone "not getting" WP. I have watched horses at the larger shows, not just the local shows. If you say WP horses do slow jog and lope in the field, I have to believe you. I have never seen that show level movement in a horse moving in the field. I was around top class horses for three years in Colorado. BTW, the walk-trot-canter-run quote was not mine, but Shepards.


For Cowgurly02;

That stallion was only showing approx. first level. He was an eventer/jumper. He had never been taught passage. When I can get to a scanner, I have photos of him doing a medium trot and a pirouette in the pasture (although on one step he did pivot, so not perfect) . I showed the passage photos to the stallion's owners and I can't find where I put them. He is also maintaining an "upper level frame" that I never asked of him.


For Berlunz;

You must not be around stallions much. I see those movements often. We were live covering a mare, everyone was chuckling when the stallion was doing a beautiful piaffe in anticipation. Just standing there, not being dangerous, just piaffeing. Passage in the field is not uncommon with them.

I didn't know TB's were "bred for it".

As for the build of wild horses. I have been around quite a few BLM rescues that were doing eventing in Colorado. They were gorgeous horses. One was a 17 hand black with obvious draft somewhere in it. Others had great conformation. I don't know what mustangs you've been around. I used to teach in Canon City Colo where they had the prison/BLM mustang program, so have seen quite a few. Different areas have different qualities in their herds.
Also, QH conformation doesn't limit them. There are quite a few doing dressage. But, they move entirely differently regardless of your idea of conformation limitations.

Berlunz, that beautiful bay horse in your gallery is moving beautifully at freedom. Is he a WP horse? Just curious.