[LindaMM]

Originally Posted by PinkHorse

What photo? This one?



Although her ears have dipped slightly below her withers at this moment in time, she's definitely not peanut rolling. This mare is built to float her neck out flat in front of her. There is nothing forced about it and it certainly doesn't impede her way of going in any way. That being said, this is from 6 years ago and these days, we would be working harder to get her to lift her neck up a little more - although she wouldn't be penalized much if at all for this carriage if we were showing her today.

Slightly? The tip of this mare's ears are easily 4 inches below the rider's knees, and about 8-10 inches below the withers.

While I agree and understand the point of a good WP or EP horse, to say that this head is NOT being carried too low is just wrong.

Glad to know there is a trend to move heads higher... but still there are still a lot of low-set horses out there today.

[PinkHorse]

Yeah, the "slightly" came out without my thinking about - went back to edit it but you'd already beat me to it. She is lower than that but not horribly so. When I look at the photo, I'm remembering the whole ride not just this moment. If she was to go around that way all the time, her placing would be lower than a more level headset but she wouldn't get killed for it.

Again - 6 years ago and not indicative of what is winning in the show pen today. Back then, we weren't worried about them getting too low as long as their legs looked good.

[LindaMM]

Originally Posted by PinkHorse

Yeah, the "slightly" came out without my thinking about - went back to edit it but you'd already beat me to it. She is lower than that but not horribly so. When I look at the photo, I'm remembering the whole ride not just this moment. If she was to go around that way all the time, her placing would be lower than a more level headset but she wouldn't get killed for it.

Again - 6 years ago and not indicative of what is winning in the show pen today. Back then, we weren't worried about them getting too low as long as their legs looked good.

But there are alot of horses I see showing whose heads are carried just this low. Most uneducated (aka "non-Pleasure") people won't notice the nice, engaged, well-balanced horses in the ring, they'll see the odd ones who look "off", and wonder how anyone finds those to be a "pleasurable" ride. And, per the old axiom, it's hard to overcome a bad first-impression.

[Timber_blaze]

My complaint is when I see horses moving so slowly, they aren't even loping anymore. They look like they're putting their four feet down and then hopping to get their hind legs back under themselves again. I just think it looks bad. I loved the video posted here, though. The horses had a pretty, relaxed head set, but they were actually moving! I also loved how he put the different colored leg wraps on. I have never before truly understood how a lope is a three beat gait. That was an incredible shot showing those two purple legs hitting the ground at the same time. I loved it!

[PinkHorse]

Originally Posted by lindammorris

But there are alot of horses I see showing whose heads are carried just this low. Most uneducated (aka "non-Pleasure") people won't notice the nice, engaged, well-balanced horses in the ring, they'll see the odd ones who look "off", and wonder how anyone finds those to be a "pleasurable" ride. And, per the old axiom, it's hard to overcome a bad first-impression.

Just like how non-dressage people come away with the impression that you're supposed to crank their noses to their chests with tight reins. How non-hunter people think those horses run around hollow in the back and in no type of "frame" at all. There are similar misconceptions in every discipline.

The best any of can do is train to the best of our ability, not fall into the trends that are detrimental for our horses, and hopefully learn from our mistakes and do better in the future.

[GotaDunQH]

Originally Posted by allison finch

I am still seeing way too many "peanut rollers" even thought he rules for head set are supposed to be strict.

Also, what happened to the nice QH with full chests. So many of the WP horses I see are very narrow chested, thin horses. And this is at the top shows!

True peanut rollers either get the gate or DQ'd....I've seen it happening alot at my AQHA shows the last couple of years. As for thin chested...the TB influence is still popular (even though I personally don't like it for a WP horse), and the TB influence is popping up in taller and lankier WP horses.

Pink Horse did a great job at explaining WP. There was a day when trainers were FORCING horses to perform low and slow. THEN some awesome WP studs came along that had the right conformation to allow a horse to go low and slow naturally. Mind set is a HUGE factor as well....a good WP horse is one that is laid back and doesn't want to go anywhere is a real hurry. There are a TON of great WP out there that go unnoticed. Instead, people pay attention to the bad examples; I find that sad. And to me, a horse with it's head up in the air and running, nose stuck out, back hollow like I see with many hunters...well it's just not pretty. But I usually keep those opinions to myself....

Jennifer

[GotaDunQH]

Originally Posted by PinkHorse

What photo? This one?



Although her ears have dipped below her withers at this moment in time, she's definitely not peanut rolling. This mare is built to float her neck out flat in front of her. There is nothing forced about it and it certainly doesn't impede her way of going in any way. That being said, this is from 6 years ago and these days, we would be working harder to get her to lift her neck up a little more - although she wouldn't be penalized much if at all for this carriage if we were showing her today.

And what some people aren't seeing is that your horse has lift in her shoulders and moving nice and clean underneath. I can see where people would think she was too low, but if her face was flatter (she looks behind here), the look would change. In WP and HUS....what is going on underneath that matters.

Jennifer

[allison finch]

Bred to go low? just because it can be bred, doesn't mean it should be.

I don't think it is natural. You don't see this kind of movement in the wild. You see passage, and most upper dressage movements in wild horses, but not the WP method of movement. Just because it can be "produced" doesn't mean it should. It is the battle of seeing how extreme it can get, IMHO.

[Lopinslow]

Originally Posted by allison finch

Bred to go low? Hmmmm reminds me of the breeding in dogs that produces things like bulldogs that can't even give birth without surgery. just because it can be bred, doesn't mean it should be.

I don't think it is natural. You don't see this kind of movement in the wild. You see passage, and most upper dressage movements in wild horses, but not the WP method of movement. Just because it can be "produced" doesn't mean it should. It is the battle of seeing how extreme it can get, IMHO.

I get SO DARN sick of people slamming others and putting them down for their chosen displine, breed of horse, etc...

if you don't LIKE it, then don't participate in it!

do you see many of us "un-natural western pleasure" people slamming other discplines or breeds?

riding period is not "natural".
So, following your arguement, people also shouldn't breed horses that excel in their chosen discpline. Be it a dressage horse that has that perfect self carriage and movement (just like we do with our WP horses) the jumping horse that sails over jumps with ease, the reiner that slides to a stop and rolls back on his own in the pasture playing, the barrel horse that is incredibly fast AND quick on his feet!

there are a lot of discplines that i don't really like, but i also respect those that participate in them and don't slam them, their horses, etc.

too bad others can't be respectful as well.

[prairiegirl]

My experience is not meant to insult anyone--I just do not understand this discipline!

I enjoy watching horse shows but up until this last winter I never saw a 'real' western pleasure horse in person, just the odd time on TV and never paid much attention, I preferred seeing the working horses show. When the first horse come out I swear I almost asked my companion why the girl was riding a lame horse! LOL That higgidy-jiggidy-bunny-hop lope thingy? Weird. If my horse did that I'd get off in a panic thinking she had a four inch nail in the sole of her hoof and it was causing her severe pain or she'd broken a leg along the way...it just looks "off"! It doesn't look natural.

Could someone explain this?