[AQHA Hunter]

I don't think that being a good, serious upper level rider requires extensive showing. You can ride just as well whether you never show, show once a year, or hit every show. Frequency of showing shouldn't be the yardstick we're measured by if we're all training just as hard. The JUDGES should be capable of giving the correct scores, so that when people are riding beyond their capacity, they get embarrassingly low scores. WHY must you show extensively to move up the levels? The levels are about training, not showing.

If I ever make it to third level, I would have no problem hauling 3-4 hours to get to maybe 4-5 recognized shows per year. But... there aren't that many within that range. To get to that many shows, I'm looking at 8+ hour hauls, so even at 3rd and up... no, I wouldn't be doing more than 3 recognized shows per year. It would be just too expensive, and I think all the hauling is tough on the horses.

[JKetsche]

Originally Posted by Kissitgoodbye

If hauling is a problem and you just want to do lower level test, stick with schooling shows!

That's unfair--for some people, showing first level at a recognized show IS the ultimate goal.

I can't speak to dressage, but in eventing, a schooling show just doesn't compare to a recognized event in terms of quality of course, quality of judging, and quality of the extras (medical personnel/safety, stabling, parking, etc). In addition, around here there aren't many schooling shows (with a similarly limited season and often with a similar driving time). They are not cheap, either. As a lower level eventing competitor, I want to be judged against the best competition by the best judges. I want to jump the best courses in the safest conditions possible. Just because I'm not yet in the upper levels (and may never be) doesn't make my show less important than an upper level show!

The rule change could really drive people from the sport. Many amatuers DREAM of reaching third level. They work hard at it, and they may be every bit as good. Please don't insinuate that if you aren't striving to move up the levels/show as high as you can that you do not belong in the competitive ring. The pleasure is in the journey, and this just creates stumbling blocks in that journey.

I agree with Lindsayanne; it's nice in theory, but it is just not practical in its application for many people. It's nice that some of us can haul 3 or more hours to a show, but for some people it just isn't going to happen. For example, FG is a much better rider than her competitive level indicates; she has no trailer, no money for entries (much less stabling/hotels), and has other obligations that make showing even more difficult. She can, however, work off lessons, ride/train daily (well, before she got hurt!), and be prepared so that when the opportunity DOES arise to compete, she can move quickly to the level appropriate for her skills/training. She shouldn't waste time at a level that isn't hers!

I knew a girl who was a phenomenal rider, but had never competed. She won her first ever horse trial (BN), placed in top company at her second (N), and within a few months was competing at Training level--and won 3 of her 4 events at that level. She was very over-qualified. If she had been forced to compete multiple times at BN and N, she would have been strapped financially to do the extra shows required--and she lived in show country--no stabling or hotel! She would have been bored, her competitors would have been frustrated competing against her, and they would have wasted valuable time (her horse was not a youngster!). She is now competing at Prelim, which shows the extent of her training at home before her first show!

Additionally, you will lose the eventing crowd. Those of us who do occasional dressage shows to keep sharp won't be able to accumulate the points, either. While we aren't a huge bulk of your competition, we are there.

I also disagree about being forced to move up after you've accumulated a certain number of points, etc. What if I accumulate those points over a LONG time and am not really ready? What if we are coming back from an injury and just want to bump down to have an easy run before the "real work" starts? What if we want to gain confidence or additional feedback? There are so many reasons against this!

Even in eventing, where safety is a factor, there are no qualifications to move from BN-N-T. You only have to qualify for FEI levels (P-I-A). Again, it's nice in theory, but it just doesn't work in this country.

[honeydoozy]

If you've had any personal dealings with USDF and it's AMAZING (coff, coff) data handling and processing skills... you'd be completely AGAINST this new plan...

While it might sound like a good idea, the logistics of actually tracking and *controlling* the vast number of entries, points, who gets to do what... it's just a big ol disaster waiting to happen.

From a horse show organizing (and managing) perspective... well having to verify each rider's eligibility is just one more headache that might inspire more organizers to pare down their event schedules... leaving even FEWER opportunities for folks to accumulate those precious points.

I'm still not sure why it really MATTERS that someone is "qualified" to ride a certain level or certain test. If you're not competitive, the judge will *surely* let you know.

What does it matter to anyone else, really??

[myerspark]

I'm happy that the USDF is finally thinking about making this needed change. If we want to compete internationally and actually have and edge we need to adopt the same rules follwed as in europe.
If you aren't making high enough scores in a lower level then no you should not be able to move to the next level. This is why you see so much bad riding in upper level classes, people just skip over things, the difference is clearly visable.
If you watch a 2nd level rider from europe vs a 3rd or even 4th level rider from the US, I'm certain you would see much better riding on the 2nd level european.
For those that think the change is unfair should stick to schooling shows. Anyone that thinks they can do 1 rated show and then move to the next level is just silly. The change is making us more internationally competitive and is a much needed step in the right direction.

[Kissitgoodbye]

Originally Posted by Jenje!

Also, %s can differ WILDLY from judge to judge... there are judges out there that will give you a 58% and that's an AWESOME score for that judge... and then there are the ones who will score you in the high 60s because they're too generous with their numbers. How is this going to effect the judges? Will they be more generous or more stingy with scores, and will they have to be "re"trained to be more uniform?

Well thats what happens at schooling shows or rated shows, the judging is all different. Hence that is why they are making the judging program a lot stiffer. I went to regionals this year, had 2 judges, and two complete different scores. I had 66% from one judgfe and a 62% from the other judge... How different is that! Very different.

Schooling show or not, all judges have a different eye and a different opinion. And I've been to schooling shows where you would of thought it was rated.

Originally Posted by harli36

I don't even have those around me anymore. They were done away with. Dressage isn't so big in my area.


I can see this as only pushing people away from the sport. Who will want to be involved with something that will cost mucho money in order to be involved in it..

Anything that has to do with dressage or any event is expensive. Yes schooling shows are a little cheaper, but its still all expensive in the long run. If you don't have schooling shows or rated shows around you, you still have to haul period. Unfortunatley hauling isn't cheap either.

Like I said before my closest show is 4 hours away!

Originally Posted by AQHA Hunter

Schooling shows don't give you the same opportunity to get scores from the level of judge that would be at a rated show. I think that's condescending, really. Of course anyone can show rated at 2nd or lower, but if I've put in all the hard work to get to 3rd or 4th, I'd like to be able to get feedback from the top judges available at rated shows.

Actually in order to have a schooling show (at least in dressagfe) your judge still has to go through the USDF program is still rated a letter. Judges are the same no matter what. Specially at a dressage schooling show. They are tough, and have gone through the same programs a higher letter judge would have.

Originally Posted by JKetsche

That's unfair--for some people, showing first level at a recognized show IS the ultimate goal.

I can't speak to dressage, but in eventing, a schooling show just doesn't compare to a recognized event in terms of quality of course, quality of judging, and quality of the extras (medical personnel/safety, stabling, parking, etc). In addition, around here there aren't many schooling shows (with a similarly limited season and often with a similar driving time). They are not cheap, either. As a lower level eventing competitor, I want to be judged against the best competition by the best judges. I want to jump the best courses in the safest conditions possible. Just because I'm not yet in the upper levels (and may never be) doesn't make my show less important than an upper level show!

The rule change could really drive people from the sport. Many amatuers DREAM of reaching third level. They work hard at it, and they may be every bit as good. Please don't insinuate that if you aren't striving to move up the levels/show as high as you can that you do not belong in the competitive ring. The pleasure is in the journey, and this just creates stumbling blocks in that journey.

Additionally, you will lose the eventing crowd. Those of us who do occasional dressage shows to keep sharp won't be able to accumulate the points, either. While we aren't a huge bulk of your competition, we are there.

I also disagree about being forced to move up after you've accumulated a certain number of points, etc. What if I accumulate those points over a LONG time and am not really ready? What if we are coming back from an injury and just want to bump down to have an easy run before the "real work" starts? What if we want to gain confidence or additional feedback? There are so many reasons against this.

Well no matter what discpline you are showing, rather it be dressage, eventing, show jumping, western pleasure, ANYTHING. Its always going to cost money. Yes it stinks that prices are so high, including gas, but thats all a part of it. Example if I want to go to Lamplight (huge for their XC and jumping) it takes me 5 hours to get there! Now tell me is that fair that I have to drive so far to just go to a jumping show?

Originally Posted by myerspark

I'm happy that the USDF is finally thinking about making this needed change. If we want to compete internationally and actually have and edge we need to adopt the same rules follwed as in europe.
If you aren't making high enough scores in a lower level then no you should not be able to move to the next level. This is why you see so much bad riding in upper level classes, people just skip over things, the difference is clearly visable.
If you watch a 2nd level rider from europe vs a 3rd or even 4th level rider from the US, I'm certain you would see much better riding on the 2nd level european.
For those that think the change is unfair should stick to schooling shows. Anyone that thinks they can do 1 rated show and then move to the next level is just silly. The change is making us more internationally competitive and is a much needed step in the right direction.

Great points Aileen! The 2nd level riders in Europe are way better then 3rd and 4th riders over here. Thats what this progam wants to do. Make the riders better at a early stage. Instead of people just flying through the levels so they can get to PSG.

It needs to be more challenging!

[harli36]

Originally Posted by Kissitgoodbye

Actually in order to have a schooling show (at least in dressagfe) your judge still has to go through the USDF program is still rated a letter. Judges are the same no matter what. Specially at a dressage schooling show. They are tough, and have gone through the same programs a higher letter judge would have.

Since when??? None of the schooling shows I went to had a rated USDF judge. IF we were lucky we got an upper level rider (as in 3rd or 4th) to judge. Most were actually hunter judges that sat in the dressage arena for an afternoon. If the schooling show isn't represented by any show organization what is making them have rated judges?

And if they make dressage even more of an elitist sport there is going to be even less intrest in showing at the lower levels. So LESS people are going to want to show. Dressage is still growing in this country and can't be compared to the European countries where it's a popular sport that even the non-horse population follows.

I also don't see how this is going to improve the competition at the upper levels. Because this system is only going to follow the riders not the horses. I could go out, buy myself a idiot-proof upper level horse and then go out get my points at the lower levels and then attempt to show at the upper levels. 3 years after I get my points I could go out get some plod along horse and attempt to show at the upper levels, just the same as someone can now do. THe only difference is that now it's going to take $$$ to do it.

Anything that has to do with dressage or any event is expensive. Yes schooling shows are a little cheaper, but its still all expensive in the long run. If you don't have schooling shows or rated shows around you, you still have to haul period. Unfortunatley hauling isn't cheap either.

Exactly showing does cost money. Therefore why should I have to go to how many shows just to be able to qualify for the level I'm actually at. While discouraging people who really do belong at those lower levels?

Great points Aileen! The 2nd level riders in Europe are way better then 3rd and 4th riders over here. Thats what this progam wants to do. Make the riders better at a early stage. Instead of people just flying through the levels so they can get to PSG.

It needs to be more challenging!

IMO the riders over there are better because there is more access to better trainers. Dressage isn't a big enough thing over here yet to have that access to the better trainers. Like I said earlier I just don't see how this is going to improve the quality of our riders.

[Jenje!]

Originally Posted by Kissitgoodbye

Well thats what happens at schooling shows or rated shows, the judging is all different. Hence that is why they are making the judging program a lot stiffer. I went to regionals this year, had 2 judges, and two complete different scores. I had 66% from one judgfe and a 62% from the other judge... How different is that! Very different.

Schooling show or not, all judges have a different eye and a different opinion. And I've been to schooling shows where you would of thought it was rated.

I'm not sure where you're coming from here, Lorin; I was talking about different judges equaling different amounts of points, and that unless they become more uniform in their scoring, it won't really be fair to those of us trying to get points... if that stellar ride I just had only comes up to maybe a 60%, and was worth more, I'm going to feel like I just threw some money down the hole. Whereas if I had had a different judge... or if I were in a part of the country where MORE shows were available, with a better selection of judges... it's too uneven across the board.

I wasn't talking about schooling shows vs. rated.

I do have a problem with this statement that those of us who have a problem with the change should stick to schooling shows. Why? We pay our hand-earned money just like everyone else... do we not deserve the right to show rated? Why should we just stick to schooling shows? That comes off as a bit elitist, as have some other comments in this thread. Sorry, but in a situation like this, every consumer gets a voice... not just those who agree with everything the organization does. And we do have the ability and the right to make our opinions known... a lot of people are getting ready to do that by pulling their memberships and boycotting the whole thing. From what I've been hearing from others, I would venture a guess that the majority do not like this.

Me? I don't want to just show at the lower levels. I do want to move up the levels. I don't expect to get very far with Fred, as he only has so many sound years ahead of him no matter what I do... but he will not be my last horse, and in the future I would love to take my filly up the levels. I bred her specifically for that. And I know that until I win the lottery, life will constantly be in the way, and I will have to scrimp and save to be able to afford to show. I am not complaining about the cost of keeping horses or showing. I'm asking you why oh why it should be made to cost MORE? I work hard for what I have. So I shouldn't be able to move up when I'm ready why? Because I might end up being a horrible, sloppy rider at 4th +?

Even if that would be the case... horrible, sloppy riders rarely have the gumption to compete internationally... so why does anyone else care?

I may not be able to afford to go to more than a couple of shows a year... a LOT of us can't. I have a life, family to consider, and a job that I need to keep to put food in the pantry, bird cage, dog bowl, in the feed room... that doesn't mean I can't afford to work my butt off at home and that I haven't earned my place to show in whatever level I'm at.

This system is no way to reward hard work. It puts further financial barriers in place, and will make it very hard for those of us who do believe in hard work to move up the levels. The fact that we can't afford to haul ridiculous distances over the course of show season REPEATEDLY until we get our points for the level, lest we be stuck in a level much lower than what we are schooling at indefinitely... that should not make us less important or less in ANY way than the riders that can.

I have been hearing a tone of "well, it's about time they started sifting out the rubbish" about this topic, and y'know what? It's offensive. Sure, this will knock some weekend warriors (you know, the kind who "aren't really trying" but ADORE their horses and doing things with them)... and their $$ contribution to USEF... and then it will also knock out those of us who really do intend to move up, work hard... and our $$ contribution to USEF. We will branch out, choose other disciplines, and put our money elsewhere. If they can afford to take a loss like that across the board, well, okay... I work hard for my money and have no problem putting it to use in a system where it is possible to advance.

[JKetsche]

Originally Posted by Jenje!

I'm not sure where you're coming from here, Lorin; I was talking about different judges equaling different amounts of points, and that unless they become more uniform in their scoring, it won't really be fair to those of us trying to get points... if that stellar ride I just had only comes up to maybe a 60%, and was worth more, I'm going to feel like I just threw some money down the hole. Whereas if I had had a different judge... or if I were in a part of the country where MORE shows were available, with a better selection of judges... it's too uneven across the board.

I wasn't talking about schooling shows vs. rated.

I do have a problem with this statement that those of us who have a problem with the change should stick to schooling shows. Why? We pay our hand-earned money just like everyone else... do we not deserve the right to show rated? Why should we just stick to schooling shows? That comes off as a bit elitist, as have some other comments in this thread. Sorry, but in a situation like this, every consumer gets a voice... not just those who agree with everything the organization does. And we do have the ability and the right to make our opinions known... a lot of people are getting ready to do that by pulling their memberships and boycotting the whole thing. From what I've been hearing from others, I would venture a guess that the majority do not like this.

Me? I don't want to just show at the lower levels. I do want to move up the levels. I don't expect to get very far with Fred, as he only has so many sound years ahead of him no matter what I do... but he will not be my last horse, and in the future I would love to take my filly up the levels. I bred her specifically for that. And I know that until I win the lottery, life will constantly be in the way, and I will have to scrimp and save to be able to afford to show. I am not complaining about the cost of keeping horses or showing. I'm asking you why oh why it should be made to cost MORE? I work hard for what I have. So I shouldn't be able to move up when I'm ready why? Because I might end up being a horrible, sloppy rider at 4th +?

Even if that would be the case... horrible, sloppy riders rarely have the gumption to compete internationally... so why does anyone else care?

I may not be able to afford to go to more than a couple of shows a year... a LOT of us can't. I have a life, family to consider, and a job that I need to keep to put food in the pantry, bird cage, dog bowl, in the feed room... that doesn't mean I can't afford to work my butt off at home and that I haven't earned my place to show in whatever level I'm at.

This system is no way to reward hard work. It puts further financial barriers in place, and will make it very hard for those of us who do believe in hard work to move up the levels. The fact that we can't afford to haul ridiculous distances over the course of show season REPEATEDLY until we get our points for the level, lest we be stuck in a level much lower than what we are schooling at indefinitely... that should not make us less important or less in ANY way than the riders that can.

I have been hearing a tone of "well, it's about time they started sifting out the rubbish" about this topic, and y'know what? It's offensive. Sure, this will knock some weekend warriors (you know, the kind who "aren't really trying" but ADORE their horses and doing things with them)... and their $$ contribution to USEF... and then it will also knock out those of us who really do intend to move up, work hard... and our $$ contribution to USEF. We will branch out, choose other disciplines, and put our money elsewhere. If they can afford to take a loss like that across the board, well, okay... I work hard for my money and have no problem putting it to use in a system where it is possible to advance.

Excellent post. What's wrong with the weekend warrior? They are the base of any equestrian organization. I'll compare to eventing again (since that's what I know)--we are trying to make the sport MORE friendly to lower-level weekend warriors by waiving braiding at some events, running events on a tighter schedule so people can go to work, doing our utmost to keep fees as low as possible, and making it possible to advance.

Adult amatuers like me are willing to haul--to a point. I can handle 4 hours--I can do that after work on Friday, get there at a reasonable time to settle the horse into stabling and check into the hotel. I can get home before midnight on Sunday so I can work on Monday. If it's much longer than that I have to take a day off of work--not easy to do so often that I could qualify to move up. Lorin, you're still in school--you have summers off, you never have to work on weekends, and you have a generous limit on how often you can be gone. I'm a teacher--summers off, weekends off--but I only get 2 "personal days" a year (and a few sick days, which I need from being around lots of germy kids!) I can't afford to miss work much to travel great distances to shows, even if I could afford the gas, hotel, stabling, etc.

I'll repeat what I said about comparing us to Europe--apples and oranges. They don't have to haul great distances, they have uniform opportunities across the country, and they have entirely different systems across the board for horse ownership, etc. What works for them will NOT work for us.

[harli36]

I'm copying and pasting this from another forum. This is how you can go about complaining (or praising if you insist ) about the rule change.

Go to www.usef.org
Click on "Rules & Governance" on the left
Click on "Rule Book"
Click on "Summary of Rule Change Proposals for 2008 Annual Meeting"
Click on "DR-Dressage Division"
Now you see a list of all rule changes proposed for Dressage. The rule in question is Tracking Number 275-07.

There is a button above the proposed changes marked "Comment Form" Click on it.

Fill out the form, providing the tracking number of the rule change proposal you are commenting on.

These are the people on the commitee who are discussing the rule change. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to send a polite email saying what you think about this rule change.

Dressage Committee

MRS MARIANNE LUDWIG
Chair
Full Address Not Provided

Day Phone: (239) 947-2506
Cell Phone: (239) 273-5907
Fax: (239) 947-2506
Email: Not Provided


MRS ANNE GRIBBONS
Co-Vice Ch
KNOLL DRESSAGE, LLC
2121 DRESSAGE COVE
CHULUOTA FL 32766
Day Phone: (407) 366-5545
Cell Phone: (407) 267-6277
Fax: (407) 366-7319
Email: agribbons@aol.com


GEORGE WILLIAMS
Co-Vice Ch
PO BOX 598
109 W. WINTER ST.
DELAWARE OH 43015
Day Phone: (937) 348-2895
Cell Phone: 937-603-9134
Fax: (740) 362-5539
Email: GEOROWMS@aol.com


MS JAYNE AYERS
Member
W381 S5225 HIGHWAY Z C
DOUSMAN WI 53118-9441
Day Phone: (262) 965-2066
Cell Phone: (414) 313-4146
Fax: (262) 965-2164
Email: jayne@dressagehorse.com


DR. SAMUEL BARISH
Member
11106 STEPHALEE LN
ROCKVILLE MD 20852-3656
Day Phone: Not Provided
Cell Phone: Not Provided
Fax: (301) 984-9593
Email: sam.barish@science.doe.gov


MISS KATHLEEN CONNELLY
Member
166 MONUMENT ST
CONCORD MA 01742
Day Phone: (978) 486-8674
Cell Phone: 561-632-8674
Fax: 978-254-5248
Email: kathyconnellyavf@aol.com


MRS MELISSA CRESWICK
Member
Full Address Not Provided

Day Phone: Not Provided
Cell Phone: Not Provided
Fax: Not Provided
Email: Not Provided


MR JAN EBELING
Member
13375 BROADWAY RD
MOORPARK CA 93021-9714
Day Phone: (805) 532-2118
Cell Phone: Not Provided
Fax: 805-532-0034
Email: acresrnch@aol.com


MRS JANET FOY
Member
5898 CUMBRE VISTA WAY
COLORADO SPRINGS CO 80924
Day Phone: (719) 260-1566
Cell Phone: 719-237-4067
Fax: (719) 260-1566
Email: dressagejanet@att.net


MS LISA GORRETTA
Member
18120 SNYDER RD
CHAGRIN FALLS OH 44023
Day Phone: (440) 338-1366
Cell Phone: (216) 406-5475
Fax: Not Provided
Email: LISA@PADDOCKSADDLERY.COM


MISS LENDON GRAY
Member
25 LAKE AVE
BEDFORD NY 10506
Day Phone: (914) 234-6302
Cell Phone: (914) 907-0103
Fax: (914) 234-2517
Email: graydressage@optonline.net


MS HILDA GURNEY
Member
8430 WATERS RD
MOORPARK CA 93021-8715
Day Phone: (805) 529-3575
Cell Phone: (805) 300-3560
Fax: (805) 523-0607
Email: hildagurney@prodigy.net


MR. SCOTT HASSLER
Member
HASSLER DRESSAGE
1455 CAYOTS CORNER ROAD
CHESAPEAKE CITY MD 21915
Day Phone: 410-885-3824
Cell Phone: Not Provided
Fax: 410-885-3823
Email: info@hasslerdressage.com


MS CAROL LAVELL
Member
3676 DUELLANT ROAD
LOXAHATCHEE FL 33470
Day Phone: Not Provided
Cell Phone: (561) 313-4484
Fax: Not Provided
Email: LAVELLCAROL@aol.com


MRS JANINE MALONE
Member
PO BOX 976
ROSINBURG FARM
ZEBULON NC 27597
Day Phone: (919) 269-7307
Cell Phone: (919) 602-6203
Fax: (919) 269-6273
Email: jemrph@aol.com


MRS DEBBIE MC DONALD
Member
101 RIVER GROVE LANE
HAILEY ID 83333
Day Phone: (208) 788-9493
Cell Phone: Not Provided
Fax: (208) 788-6244
Email: DRESSAGEMC@AOL.COM


MR AXEL STEINER
Member
1759 LA PLAZA DR
SAN MARCOS CA 92078
Day Phone: (760) 510-9779
Cell Phone: Not Provided
Fax: (760) 510-9599
Email: axsteiner@aol.com


MRS ELISABETH WILLIAMS
Member
611 WADE AVE
HORSHAM PA 19044-1506
Day Phone: (215) 643-9362
Cell Phone: (267) 250-2685
Fax: --
Email: lizyh@aol.com


MRS LINDA ZANG
Member
PO BOX 187
IDLEWILDE FARM
DAVIDSONVILLE MD 21035
Day Phone: (443)-994-4647
Cell Phone: (443) 994-4647
Fax: (410) 798-6151
Email: idlewilde@aol.com

[Jenje!]

Harli, did you get that off of the Ultimate Dressage BB?