[PinkHorse]

I know a lot of people who use this technique to teach a horse to give. I've never found that it taught the horse anything I can't do in another way and have a lot more control over the give & take.

[Outlaws_Gunn]

People!!!!! It's not as bad as it sounds. You start w it loose so they DON'T get muscle damage and they get use to it GRADUALLY...
It's not like you're strapping the animals head to directly to it's saddle. Yeesh!

You can hurt a horse JUST as much w your hands. Don't flip out cause of the name. Although, 'tieing the head' does sound pretty harsh.

[PinkHorse]

Originally Posted by Outlaws_Gunn

People!!!!! It's not as bad as it sounds. You start w it loose so they DON'T get muscle damage and they get use to it GRADUALLY...
It's not like you're strapping the animals head to directly to it's saddle. Yeesh!

You can hurt a horse JUST as much w your hands. Don't flip out cause of the name. Although, 'tieing the head' does sound pretty harsh.

I don't have any particular problem with it when it's done right. I've just never found it to be of much benefit. I think a lot of people do it because "you're supposed to".

[Bernardo]

Originally Posted by PinkHorse

I don't have any particular problem with it when it's done right. I've just never found it to be of much benefit. I think a lot of people do it because "you're supposed to".

And thats the worst thing to do.
It doesn't work on every horse, and it doesn't work for every trainer/rider etc.
It should only be done when you know how to do it, and it's something that'll benefit your horse.

It doesn't work when you have a horse that doesn't know how to bend, and it doesn't work when you have a horse that is already REALLY soft at that point in time.

[Outlaws_Gunn]

PinkHorse, yeah, I have to agree w that. You don't HAVE TO, just some people do. I did it w my three because I knew how (trainer showed me), and it got the point in their heads of 'I need to turn my head'. Once they learned to just tilt their heads around to the left/right, I did the rest w my hands.

[LRHenneman]

Originally Posted by MaggieSue

It's an old way of training, and IMO cruel-why would you need to do that? A horse already KNOWS how to bend, watch them go after a fly sometime. This is NOT NEEDED EVER IMO. Riding the horse, and asking them to give to the bit-while moving forward and INTO THE BIT, is the way to teach. NOT forcing their head around and leaving it there for hours

I agree. It's cruel. My family used it when breaking stock. Kind of breaks their spirit after a while, just like tying a leg up. Some trainers still use it--keeping horses with their heads tied to the saddle for hours.

IMO--it's cruelty. You can teach a horse to be supple without torturing it.

[KristinJ]

Originally Posted by IIIBarsV

I agree. Although I usually do it with my own two hands on the ground first.

I don't ever see a reason to tie a horse around, if you're using your aids and brain correctly.

If you want a horse with muscle damage, go for it. Let's tie your arm behind your back for 10 minutes or 30 minutes. Sure, you can do it... but you're going to be sore and start leaning on that tie as soon as your muscles get fatigued, which is usually around the 5-10 minute mark. Are you really going to learn anything?

Notta thing except how much you can lean on the tie without hurting yourself.

I can honestly say there has never been a situation or a horse who I even considered tying around, no matter the age, training level, or behavior of the horse. There's nothing you can't fix with your own two hands- provided you know how to use them, and know how to keep your temper and patience.

If you have a horse with a problem and you think you "have" to tie them around, then I really do not believe the horse is the one with the problem.

I agree 100%. I understand where the people are coming from who use these technique, BUT it can be done just as easily without tying and just doing it through work. And I bet it doesn't take any longer then it would if you tied their head (even gradually). My yearling learned VERY quickly to give to pressure using the method I mentioned. I do no want my horse to become sour to bending, and learn to hate work. My horse comes to me with a great work ethic and I wouldn't want to do anything to him that would make him want to despise work at all.

But like anything, do what works for you. =)

[MuckMuck]

Very dangerous and worthless training technique causes massive injuries and big wreck!

[IIIBarsV]

I don't have any particular problem with it when it's done right. I've just never found it to be of much benefit. I think a lot of people do it because "you're supposed to".

Agreed.

And I bet it doesn't take any longer then it would if you tied their head (even gradually)

In my experience, it takes 10% of the time it takes for you to tie the rein, adjust it, hope the horse doesn't kill you, etc etc etc.

1) Bridle up. (Assuming the horse has been bitted up and given lots of time to get the feel of the bit and get over it).

2) Warm horse up... lunging, whatever floats your boat. Don't tie the reins except out of the way.

3) Put reins up normal as if you're going to mount up. Standing at horse's shoulder, pick up one rein in one hand (ie, left side, left hand). Apply pressure. Press your other arm or hand on the horse's belly, stirrup, side... mimick leg pressure.

4) Hold pressure at a light but "annoying" level. Wait. Move with the horse and keep an eye on their head and forefeet, if they start backing up, etc. You should have enough pressure on the rein that they can feel it, but not feel "trapped" or "SUDDENLY GRABBED!" by it.

5) As soon as horse lowers head and comes around into the pressure, let them. Do Not Pull. Do Not Increase Pressure. Let the horse's "giving to the bit" be the thing that makes the slack come out- releasing the pressure.

6) Horse has lightbulb moment.

7) Repeat for both sides. Repeat with both reins once horse is 100% solid for "give to pressure, give to pressure. This will be your first step for "vertical flexion". Applying your hand/arm pressure simultaenously and releasing it in time when the horse gives will teach them to bend "around your leg".

This whole process takes a grand total of 5, maybe 10 minutes with a dead beginner horse. Sometimes it only takes once. I have had several horses in for training who just "gave" to the pressure as soon as they felt it. I have never been stepped on or injured this way. The horses rarely give me any trouble with it. The most trouble was a headtoss and a rooter, both who learned within 5 repeats of "pressure-release" to just give to the pressure.

Note: this is the basic idea of how I train everything- anything that requires movement of the horse's body. Rarely, rarely will the horse's try to even think about disobeying.

And interesting side note: Any horse who sets foot on my property and is being handled in any way, generally turns into an old plug- if they were especially spooky, pushy, jumpy, they become quiet, confident, and as chill as beatniks. LOL.

Side-story: So, I go home for the weekend, walk into the barn. I stare... there is the CUTEST, fattest-necked little chestnut flaxen pony in one of the stalls. I squeal, run over, cuddle him and pet him and go over every inch of him and kiss his nose for like 20 minute. He is sweet and quiet and loves the attention. Tiniest ears, and his neck is like... MASSIVE. His bridlepath is like.. fat. LOL But he's pretty fit-looking, no potbelly, nice muscle.

Mom walks in the barn and says:

"You should probably have a halter on the STALLION if you're going to do that..."

"He's a.... SERIOUSLY????" I look. He is.

I recall mom saying something about getting a pony stud in for training because he's a little demon pony- biter, kicker, pushy, dominant, etc... but this guy? He's a total pushover pony. And she's only had him at our place for a week.

Pics:

Neck... holy moly.


The face of a demon pony stallion? HARDLY! Lookit his ears.


Anywho.... *slinks away*

[Theorist]

IIIbars... 5-10 minutes for you or me.. BUT not everyone has the same hands, education or experience. That is the nice thing about being able to tie a head around... it isn't nose to fender at first go.. it is give an inch, not take a mile... It is consistency for many that don't necessarily have the same consistency you have in hand, seat and leg.
Not everyone gives when they give.. we both know that. Tying a head around can allow the give while the horse moves forward into it, softly.
I don't think it is an absolute as far as training goes, but it does have a place.