[Dawn]

That article is correct, but I think I missed the question.

[PeggySue]

Protein is not a viabale energy source and that many people confuse protein with the "heat" or energy of a feed and that is a MYTH

[Blistering Winds]

Originally Posted by sorrell

Okay, this is the chart I was thinking of, with fat having more calories than carbs and proteins so being more efficient at putting on weight.
So, what exactly are we saying about protein and horses?



"MacronutrientCaloriesKilojoulesProtein416.7Fat937 .7Carbohydrate416.7
Yes, each gram of fat you consume provides more than twice as many calories as a gram of protein or carbohydrate!
As an example of how these numbers are used, imagine a food containing 10 grams of protein, 10 grams of fat, and 10 grams of carbohydrates. That would total 170 calories:

(10 g protein x 4) + (10 g fat x 9) + (10 g carbs x 4) = 170
In this imaginary food 40 calories come from protein, 90 calories come from fat, and 40 calories come from carbohydrates.
Technical Notes

The Numbers Don't Always Add Up

If you check a food label you may find that the total number of calories listed doesn't match the number you arrive at using the 4-9-4 method described above. The reason for the discrepancy may be that the figure for carbohydrates includes insoluble fiber, and the food manufacturer has accounted for this in their figure for calories.
Insoluble fiber passes through your body without being converted to a form that provides energy, or calories. Knowing this, the manufacturer may subtract the caloric value of the insoluble fiber (4 calories per gram) from the total calories figure. When they do this, the 4-9-4 method will give you a higher figure for total calories than the one you find on the food label.
You might think that you could subtract the figure for fiber from the figure for carbohydrates to correct the discrepancy. But the figure for fiber will likely include both soluble and insoluble fiber, and you'd only want to subtract the insoluble fiber. Unfortunately you have no way of knowing how much of the fiber is soluble, and how much is insoluble."

is this humans or horses?

You cannot compare on the carb issue, because horses can digest WAY MORE than humans. They can digest cellulous and hemicellulous, which we cannot, and none of us can on Lignin.

Certain proteins we can digest, horses cannot.

If you want "WEIGHT", then a significant calorie increase is a must. That is agreed upon by not only human nutritionists, but animal nutritionists alike.

Fat provides the most in the least amount.

Carbs is "utilized" the best as it is quick to fire off, easy to store, and easy to retrieve.

Protein has its own category and responsibilities that are non-weight based (unless you count muscle weight).....and must meet those responsibilities before it can begin...and again, still must be provided in a specific mannor to be utilized.

[sorrell]

Originally Posted by Dawn

That article is correct, but I think I missed the question.

I think my question would be, what are the optimal levels of protein that a horse needs to thrive.
Do mares or foals need more?
Do working horses need more.
or, are we just feeding too much in general?

[sorrell]

Originally Posted by Blistering Winds

is this humans or horses?

You cannot compare on the carb issue, because horses can digest WAY MORE than humans. They can digest cellulous and hemicellulous, which we cannot, and none of us can on Lignin.

Certain proteins we can digest, horses cannot.

If you want "WEIGHT", then a significant calorie increase is a must. That is agreed upon by not only human nutritionists, but animal nutritionists alike.

Fat provides the most in the least amount.

Carbs is "utilized" the best as it is quick to fire off, easy to store, and easy to retrieve.

Protein has its own category and responsibilities that are non-weight based (unless you count muscle weight).....and must meet those responsibilities before it can begin...and again, still must be provided in a specific mannor to be utilized.

This was humans and just to show the three main sources of calories, not as a comparison.

[PeggySue]

optimal for each horse varies upon alot of thing

general guidelines from NRC 2006
mature body weight of 1000 lbs

Adult no work 540 Grams to 720
working 699 to 1004
stallions 720 to 789
Peg Mares 630 to 893
lactating mares 1265 to 1535
Growing animals 669 to 1091

These are guidelines
all numbers above are in grams so you would need to multiply it X 0.03527 to get ouches and firgure pounds from there LOL I stink at the conversions

Here is a link to the old NRC guidelines some of the info has changed but it gives a base to build from
Nutrient Requirements of Horses, Fifth Revised Edition, 1989

[sorrell]

Originally Posted by PeggySue

optimal for each horse varies upon alot of thing

general guidelines from NRC 2006
mature body weight of 1000 lbs

Adult no work 540 Grams to 720
working 699 to 1004
stallions 720 to 789
Peg Mares 630 to 893
lactating mares 1265 to 1535
Growing animals 669 to 1091

These are guidelines
all numbers above are in grams so you would need to multiply it X 0.03527 to get ouches and firgure pounds from there LOL I stink at the conversions

Here is a link to the old NRC guidelines some of the info has changed but it gives a base to build from
Nutrient Requirements of Horses, Fifth Revised Edition, 1989

Thanks, that helps me to see it all in a list!

[PeggySue]

give one of the others time adn I am sure they can put it into pounds for you LOL I just can't do the conversions YET LOL

hehe I cheated here this might also help
1 pound = 453.59237 grams

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by me and morgan

What Im saying is HUmans sometimes ARE the problem..in feeding what they think ..horses should eat...
mixing this ,adding that..weighing some of this...hay,alfalfa,supps...sugars..then bam...founder and all kinds of other problems...keep it simple....what works for others ..sometimes does not work for other horses to..

You're right, every horse, just like every human, is an individual with slightly varying needs. BUT, there are BASIC needs that every creature in a given species has to meet for life. How much above and beyond that, for optimal health, is where things start to vary based on the individual's metabolism, his environment, his nature (hot horses have higher mineral needs than the slugs), and, in the domestic world, his forced workload. The NRC has done a ton of research on this, and while it's not the be-all end-all to nutrition, it's a great starting place. One SHOULD keep things simple, but at the same time, since we have taken the horse out of the natural environment where he can and does forage for a HUGE variety in his diet - grasses, weeds, flowers, minerals, trees, leaves, and more - we have to try to put some of those nutrients back.

Originally Posted by sorrell

I think my question would be, what are the optimal levels of protein that a horse needs to thrive.
Do mares or foals need more?
Do working horses need more.
or, are we just feeding too much in general?

Growing horses and lactating mares need more, older horses need better quality (but not necessarily more), and in the generic adult horse, there is very little difference between the protein needs of the pasture puff and the hard working horse. When you get into the HARD workers - endurance, for example - then yes, the need goes up a LITTLE bit. Peggy's numbers help a lot

[sorrell]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Growing horses and lactating mares need more, older horses need better quality (but not necessarily more), and in the generic adult horse, there is very little difference between the protein needs of the pasture puff and the hard working horse. When you get into the HARD workers - endurance, for example - then yes, the need goes up a LITTLE bit. Peggy's numbers help a lot

Okay, this is what my vet told me back in the 90s and that was what I was curious about. Seems he knew what he was talking about after all...