[Silverwings]

Originally Posted by StockHorseGirl

I know that my horses seem much more comfortable when moving in frame and collected then when moving hollow. I have yet to see a horse moving hollow that looks more comfortable then a horse moving collected. I don't see why so many of you guys are so against working a horse in proper frame for an hour.

I agree! I worked my horse for my first time in a frame today and she was moving MUCH better than when she was out of it. Everything was lot smoother and calmer, and she loved it! I could tell because by the end of the lesson, I didn't even have to work to get her into frame. She did it on her own!!

[MissCriss]

Originally Posted by StockHorseGirl

I know that my horses seem much more comfortable when moving in frame and collected then when moving hollow. I have yet to see a horse moving hollow that looks more comfortable then a horse moving collected. I don't see why so many of you guys are so against working a horse in proper frame for an hour.

The horse will of course seem more COMFORTABLE when in a frame. And it makes sense, because that way you're not pounding on a hollow back. That would hurt lol! You're horse is probably in great shape to be able to ride in a frame for that long. But if you did that with a youngster, boy you'd have a sour horse after a while, unless they were one of those horses that just did well NATURALLY in a frame (a lot of the time, these are stallions).

BUT, if the horse's muscles are not strong enough to hold itself up, then of course the horse will be sore after an HOUR of frame work. Shoot, I don't even ride my horses for a straight hour unless it's an issue of dominance, in which case *I* must keep my spot as leader. I usually ride 45 minutes of consistent dressage work, with a few breaks in between more difficult movements, and no longer. This is because the muscles they are using, they are using very hard.

Also, my critique on the picture of the western pleasure horse in an earlier post:

This western horse is probably well balanced.
Collection for me as a dressage rider requires that the horse articulate it's joints more and shift it's weight more to the hindquarters. This cannot be accomplished without contact which the western horse doesn't have. You can see that this horse isn't going to step under and through enough to compress and shorten it's base of support.

Originally Posted by Silverwings

I agree! I worked my horse for my first time in a frame today and she was moving MUCH better than when she was out of it. Everything was lot smoother and calmer, and she loved it! I could tell because by the end of the lesson, I didn't even have to work to get her into frame. She did it on her own!!

Yes, when the horse is stepping under themselves and bringing their back up towards you, it will be a MUCH smoother ride and more supple. I NEVER sit on a horse (I post) unless they are round over the topline, or else it will be very hard to sit and it will be uncomfortable for the horse as well. When the horse is round, he can be light on his forehand, and therefore have more reach in his shoulder. My horse Mack, when I rode him, he had mediocre gaits--that is, until I got him round. He always got 7's and 8's on his gaits in dressage tests when he went round for me.

[cutter123]

miss criss, i have a contact/hindquarter use question for u. (again sorry about my bad typing i have a broken hand im usually much better)

u said a horse cannot properly shift his weight to his hindquarters w/o contact. do u mean that just in a dressage sense while going forward? or do u mean at all? i have seen plenty of examples of western horses using their hindquarters w/ little/no contact, so perhaps it is just our definition that differs?





(in keeping with the other topic, u can compare the baby move i ask for from this 2 yr old to the big moves of the 16 yr old horse pictured above.... but i still want her towork off her hindquarters...)



what about this horse? would u call him balanced and reaching under himself? i am not trying to be offensive; i really would like your opinion; i respect ur knowledge and clearly written posts

this horse....

[littlecelticpony]

I think this is about the time in these threads where I jump in and start screaming...




"SEMANTICS! SEMANTICS!"

[doublebarr]

Originally Posted by littlecelticpony

I think this is about the time in these threads where I jump in and start screaming...




"SEMANTICS! SEMANTICS!"

ROTFLOL!!! Wondered where you were when I took a look at this thread, LOL.

PEOPLE - STEP OUTSIDE YOUR OWN FAVORITE DISCIPLINE PLEASE!

There is more to riding horses than dressage or jumping or hack or WP or the cattle stuff. There is more than ONE correct way to use "frame" and "collection".

And John is right. Any colt I'm working with has a much more comfortable day when we TRY to stay properly rounded, lifted and together (ie: a form of frame or collection ) when we start than one that I allow to lumber around all day becasue he "is to green to go collected because he doesn't have the "muscles" for it". And that's all I'm going to add to this, as I have deffinately seen this same "arguement" many times before in this forum, LOL, and have made my "arguement" in depth many times before.

[StockHorseGirl]

Originally Posted by MissCriss

The horse will of course seem more COMFORTABLE when in a frame. And it makes sense, because that way you're not pounding on a hollow back. That would hurt lol! You're horse is probably in great shape to be able to ride in a frame for that long. But if you did that with a youngster, boy you'd have a sour horse after a while, unless they were one of those horses that just did well NATURALLY in a frame (a lot of the time, these are stallions).

BUT, if the horse's muscles are not strong enough to hold itself up, then of course the horse will be sore after an HOUR of frame work. Shoot, I don't even ride my horses for a straight hour unless it's an issue of dominance, in which case *I* must keep my spot as leader. I usually ride 45 minutes of consistent dressage work, with a few breaks in between more difficult movements, and no longer. This is because the muscles they are using, they are using very hard.

Also, my critique on the picture of the western pleasure horse in an earlier post:

This western horse is probably well balanced.
Collection for me as a dressage rider requires that the horse articulate it's joints more and shift it's weight more to the hindquarters. This cannot be accomplished without contact which the western horse doesn't have. You can see that this horse isn't going to step under and through enough to compress and shorten it's base of support.





Yes, when the horse is stepping under themselves and bringing their back up towards you, it will be a MUCH smoother ride and more supple. I NEVER sit on a horse (I post) unless they are round over the topline, or else it will be very hard to sit and it will be uncomfortable for the horse as well. When the horse is round, he can be light on his forehand, and therefore have more reach in his shoulder. My horse Mack, when I rode him, he had mediocre gaits--that is, until I got him round. He always got 7's and 8's on his gaits in dressage tests when he went round for me.

MissCriss...collection is not just working a horse on a dressage frame. Good western horses are collected...they will round their back, bring their legs under then, and lift their shoulders.

It seems like from your posts that your idea of collection is forcing a horse into frame using bit contact. Bit contact is to control your horse, but true collection comes from proper riding. Sure, you can give any horse a HEADSET by using harsh bit contact...and yes they will be sore after an hour of that. If you put your body into the correct position and just gently play with your fingers to encourage your horse to lift it's back and round then you will not have a sore horse, you will have a happy horse who is moving like he was designed to move, no matter what the age.

One of my favorite things to do is watch my horse play in the pasture. They can go from a canter to a complete stop with grace. They round their backs and bring their hind end under them when they stop. I have watched my 3 year old draft cross piaffe, extend his canter, and turn on a dime. Horses naturally move right when they are at liberty. We as riders just need to learn how to position ourselves to aid in our horse to move as good as his conformation will let him.

[cutter123]

ahhh yes. semantics! lmao!
that is prob the best answer for all the questions i had

doublbarr sorry to rehash old arguments im new so i must have missed them first time around yes there is definitely more than one way to skin a cat and no one has a monopoly on the one right thing. (there is effective and ineffective but thats a different thread hahahaha)
i do agree w/ u completely about getting a young horse moving right right off the bat i just wanted to point out the degree of "frame" u ask for will naturally be less and gradually build up... and a horse who moves wrong is a different story regards to how u get it moving right. i prefer a cleanslate of course!

good points, stockhorsegirl.

[doublebarr]

Originally Posted by cutter123

doublbarr sorry to rehash old arguments im new so i must have missed them first time around

J -that was not directed right at you, LOL. You go ahead and make your points and your "arguement". I enjoy reading it. I just put that because a couple of us have done almost the exact same "discussion" previously many times and I figured people were tired of reading my comments once again, LOL. You're pretty much putting mostly the same thing I have argued and the same "type" of pictures, just different riders. I just see the same thing again and again, when people of "specific" disciplines talk semantics, LOL. They get hung up on their discipline and forget there are other ways to ride and train.

But you go right ahead. I'm sure your information and the way you present it are just as, if not more, valuable than mine or the next persons. I'm just not going to get drawn back into the game this time, LOL.

[cutter123]

awwww but but doublebarr... i wasnt around to hear ur discussion b4... i love hearing ur opinions and theories on horsemanship
hehehe

[MissCriss]

MissCriss...collection is not just working a horse on a dressage frame. Good western horses are collected...they will round their back, bring their legs under then, and lift their shoulders.

It seems like from your posts that your idea of collection is forcing a horse into frame using bit contact. Bit contact is to control your horse, but true collection comes from proper riding. Sure, you can give any horse a HEADSET by using harsh bit contact...and yes they will be sore after an hour of that. If you put your body into the correct position and just gently play with your fingers to encourage your horse to lift it's back and round then you will not have a sore horse, you will have a happy horse who is moving like he was designed to move, no matter what the age.

One of my favorite things to do is watch my horse play in the pasture. They can go from a canter to a complete stop with grace. They round their backs and bring their hind end under them when they stop. I have watched my 3 year old draft cross piaffe, extend his canter, and turn on a dime. Horses naturally move right when they are at liberty. We as riders just need to learn how to position ourselves to aid in our horse to move as good as his conformation will let him.

No, no no no guys . I of course know that forcing a horse into the contact is WRONG and will NOT get you a supple horse or a horse that is moving correctly. I apologize if I sounded that way because I have been preached to over and over again by my trainer how that is the wrong way to ride, and that asking a horse to lower his head and relax into the contact is by suppling, not constricting. That is why I am against using the rolkur method. I am saying that from MY personal experiene and my personal understanding of what collection is, you must have a steady, flexible contact with the horse to collect the energy.

Yes, I agree that horses can all do these things very naturally. That is one of my arguments when people say dressage is unnatural and bad for a horse. If you look at stallions in a pasture trying to show off, they will perform many of the dressage movements. Perhaps not exactly the way that would score you an 8 in a competition, but what would be classified as a passage/flying change/extended trot, etc.

There was something mentioned in an earlier post that I agreed with and is more of what I am trying to say. Of course when you get on a young horse, that has very minimal training, you do not just let him drag you around the arena. You first ask for straightness and forwardness. Then begin to add in more elemnts of riding, like balance, rhythm, bend, etc. Then you ask for minimal degress of "collection" or a "frame", so that they immediately learn to stay within certain boundaries that will help them figure out how to balance themselves. Then you can increase the amount of collection.

I am no trainer. I'm a 16-year-old junior riding first level and schooling third level movements, so I am in no way absolutely sure of what is within my skill level, but all these things that I say on this forum are just from my understanding so far.

That's why in posts, I say "as a dressage rider", because I'm not experienced with other disciplines. When people say "I ride my young/unfit horse collected" the first thing that goes to my mind is the ideal dressage form of collection. And in the dressage world, I have experienced that if you collect your training level horse like a fourth level horse, you are doing something VERY wrong and pushy. In one of the training level tests I rode, the judge gave me a low score for riding the a certain movement TOO collected. I understand why she did it, because at training level, I've been taught that we want our horses to progress through their training nice and slow.

I have no idea how other frames or types of collection should be for other disciplines, and that is where I made a very big mistake--I didn't take that into account. I am not saying other methods are wrong either, and if it came off as that way, I'm very sorry. Just wanted to clear that up because that was the vibe I was getting from people. I am just sharing what I myself understand to be collection, not trying to enforce it.

I'm sorry guys that I was being kind of ignorant . I didn't mean it to be that way.

Anyways...I guess I will go ahead and give my personal opinion on the pictures above. The older horse is of course, very well muscles and knows his stuff. If there is one discipline that I have heard dressage riders being very respectful of, it is reining. Even though that is a horse working cattle, I am assuming the way you train reiners and cattle horses is similar???? I think for the horse to do his work, he MUST be collected and learn to sit back on his haunches, or else he will never be able to execute quick and precise movements like it looks like he is doing. I think an experienced horse like that with the help of a good rider, learned throughout the years that he HAD to sit back to turn on and stop on a dime.

I DO agree, that "collection" is more of a general term whose meaning can accomodate to a discipline.

I also feel, that for each discipline, collection is in varying degrees, and in different forms.

Example, a hunter under saddle can be collected, but not in the degree that a dressage rider would ask for. But, it is collected enough to where it serves the purpose of the sport and to where the horse is balaned. I think that is the MAIN thing that results from collection--balance.

Or, a youngster can be ridden in a frame, but not in a frame that a GP horse would be demanded of. In that case, a lesser form of collection (not lesser as in less important, but as in weight being carried behind) is being used. I think I understand now what people are saying when they can work their younger horses in a correct frame--that the frame they are riding in is not AS intense as an older horse....right???

My overall opinion of the horses in the pictures is that they are ridden by very good riders who know how to keep their horses balanced. And in that sense, they are collected. Not in a DRESSAGE way, which is really the only way I am experienced way. BUT, I would NOT say that those horses are NOT collected. They are just collected in a different way than they would be in dressage. And for good reason, because it compliments whatever discipline they are being ridden.