[oldhorsehome]

Chester, I love your threads. Always informative and sometimes controversial (see the bunny bathing thread, LOL).

Great illustration!! I'm looking forward to the next set of pics to see her improvement!

[freedom32]

Good thread SL--so much easier when the horse understands what is being asked of it. Never been a fan of gadgets.

[cutter123]

Originally Posted by John

Why would you think that it would be harder for the horse to work in in frame than out.

well what is`easier for u? puttin on some grateful dead tunes and dancing freestyle jumping around and spinning like robert smith from the cure, or attemptin to go en pointe and dance classical ballet without prior preparation? tell me, can u kick ur leg over your head? how bout if i were to grab a hold of it and push unti it went there and then held it there?

in my yoga class, my instructor really focuses on correctness of the postures....for what level the individual is on. so my tree pose is a deeper pose than my moms tree`pose, because she is newer and not as flexible as me. the teacher still emphasises correctness of form for her, but instead of her leg being all the way folded as mine is, her foot rests at mid calf, and she holds onto a chair for balance.

what im saying is there are gradual steps u take to work up to a full on frame. the first would be getting a tense horse relaxed and a bit more supple.

[John]

Originally Posted by cutter123

well what is`easier for u? puttin on some grateful dead tunes and dancing freestyle jumping around and spinning like robert smith from the cure, or attemptin to go en pointe and dance classical ballet without prior preparation? tell me, can u kick ur leg over your head? how bout if i were to grab a hold of it and push unti it went there and then held it there?

in my yoga class, my instructor really focuses on correctness of the postures....for what level the individual is on. so my tree pose is a deeper pose than my moms tree`pose, because she is newer and not as flexible as me. the teacher still emphasises correctness of form for her, but instead of her leg being all the way folded as mine is, her foot rests at mid calf, and she holds onto a chair for balance.

what im saying is there are gradual steps u take to work up to a full on frame. the first would be getting a tense horse relaxed and a bit more supple.

It is not any harder for the horse to carry a rider in frame. They just need a rider that can stay above the C of G and show them how to keep their feet underneath themselves. You should know from riding cutters.

[IIIBarsV]

Collection is a lifted back, but depending on the horse's conformation etc, the head may not go down. What every horse will or should be doing with their head during collection for it to be "total" collection is flexing through the poll vertically. A horse that is nose-pointing-out is not flexing through the poll and therefore is lacking one piece of the puzzle of collection.

(This is my way of saying reiners have it figured out even if they do beat and pound on their horses to get it. Western pleasure stock horses do not have it figured out except in rare cases. English riders have it figured out, except they do need to back off the contact/hands in a fair majority of cases. Arabian western pleasure people who are winning have it figured out fantastically, although a lot overbend the horse behind the vertical.)

Here's a good example of an Arabian western pleasure who is collected and not overbent.


The only real way to condition a horse for collection is to DO it in the same way you would condition them for riding, period. Overworking is detrimental. UNderworking gets you nowhere.

Collection on the rider can be tough. You also have to be lifting your back, your butt, maintaining body position. There's been times when I've been out of shape from riding due to winter, and you can bet if someone had stuck me on a collected in-shape horse, I wouldn't have been able to hold the position for any length of time. lol

I'd also like to point out a big deciding factor of how easy it is for your horse to collect. Their hooves. A properly set up hoof with no long toes, high/underrun heels slowing down breakover and adding extra strain on joints makes a horse's movement so much better, easy, and light. This is the problem with Gaited/Light Show horses, with their overgrown feet designed to get the higher step. The wear and tear on these joints and tendons is tripled, and collecting takes so much more effort. This can actually be incredibly counterproductive as a higher step will choppy-up your horse's smooth, flowing movement in a heartbeat. Same goes for stock horses who are walking around on "stiletto feet".

I am sad to hear/see that some dressage riders are "faking it" with the longer built up foot, also.

[cutter123]

Originally Posted by John

It is not any harder for the horse to carry a rider in frame. They just need a rider that can stay above the C of G and show them how to keep their feet underneath themselves. You should know from riding cutters.

oh i guess i dont know nothing. perhaps my boss should fire me and hire u

equine jessie said it pretty clearly... a colt can learn to go relaxed with a lifted back from day one... so is that ur definition of frame? keeping their feet under themselves?

to me thats just riding. thats not a frame.

i sure as heck dont expect a two year old to move like a four year old or a four year old to move like an aged open horse. when someone says "frame" to me it implies a horse going collected with a flexed nose rounded etc. like IIIBarsV said... not a horse just learning to go relaxed and finding their feet.

im not disputing the op's point. a good rider can get on any horse and make it go better than it previously did. i have seen that pretty much every day here at my barn and have demonstrated it myself.

maintaining a finished frame whether we are talking bridled up and elevated like a dressage horse or moving hard crouching like a cutting horse takes strength and stamina and isnt something u just get in one day. every ride from day one goes towards the goal of a good moving horse. its a gradual process.

on a stiff horse that has issues from moving wrong, the good rider can get on and quickly get the horse moving better, as chester has demonstrated. but im sure he/she knows just as well as everyone that truely "fixing" a wrong moving horse is a gradual process and is best accomplished by taking many intermediate steps to go from stiff to supple, to help the horse develop not only new moving habits but the physical strength and flexibility to perform them.

but what do i know

[MissCriss]

Originally Posted by John

Why would you think that it would be harder for the horse to work in in frame than out.

It would be harder for the horse, in my opinion, to work in a different frame because he has developed muscles from how he has been going. He has strong underneck muscles and a week topline. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if I had walked several years with my back slouched, and then suddenly forced myself to walk with my shoulder back, it would be more difficult because the muscles for carrying myself upright were not developed. Even though standing straight is BETTER for me, it's harder because the proper muscles are not developed. It's not impossible for me to do, but it'd be lots of work!

I guess that's why most trainers don't ask their horse to go on the bit until they're more fit. They ask them to go long and low to build some muscles over their topline. They ask them to move forward so that they build some muscle from behind. Since they naturally carry %60 of their weight most of the time on their forelegs, asking them to carry their backs in the proper way and putting more weight behind takes some work! I guess an analogy would be me learning to do a handstand? Bad analogy haha, but I think you know what I'm saying . I'm sure though, when you sit on the horse, it would be much more comfortable on the horse's back when he is carrying himself properly for riding.

In my opinion, if it was very easy for a horse to carry himself in a frame, then four year olds, and not fifteen year olds, would be able to do that perfect piaffe with a rider on . TRUE collection takes WORK. Why do you think those prime time dressage horses are so buff ? Not only that, but if collection were really that easy, then LOTS of people would be showing their horses in the FEI levels instead of the lower levels, and MOST people show in the lower levels, even though they can be great riders. It takes time for the horse's muscles to develop. AND, if it were that easy, then why does it take a horse a bare minimum of eight years of solid training to make it to Grand Prix? Are dressage riders just wussies? I think "yes" would be an ignorant answer.

BUT, I also think that a FRAME is different from COLLECTION. Collection INVOLVES a frame, but a frame doesn't always involve collection. You can get a horse to arch his neck and run through onto the forehand, but if he isn't rocking his weight back and pushing from behind, with energy flowing over a lifted back and light forehand, then that is not what I myself, would call true collection.

[MissCriss]

Originally Posted by cutter123

on a stiff horse that has issues from moving wrong, the good rider can get on and quickly get the horse moving better, as chester has demonstrated. but im sure he/she knows just as well as everyone that truely "fixing" a wrong moving horse is a gradual process and is best accomplished by taking many intermediate steps to go from stiff to supple, to help the horse develop not only new moving habits but the physical strength and flexibility to perform them.

Agreed .

[StockHorseGirl]

I know that my horses seem much more comfortable when moving in frame and collected then when moving hollow. I have yet to see a horse moving hollow that looks more comfortable then a horse moving collected. I don't see why so many of you guys are so against working a horse in proper frame for an hour.

[imjustjoking22]

Well I think the whole point is that by the *end* of the ride, the owner of that horse was starting to get the horse moving in a better frame.

NO WHERE in that first post do I read that the horse was worked in that frame for an hour... therefore, this argument is just kind of silly.