[cutter123]

2manypetz, the common denominator in all the head up pics isthe rider has stiffened her back and become bracy herself. the horse has merely followed suit. notice in the nice relaxed walk pic the rider is also much softer. often a riders stiff back is the root of the problem. please excuse my horrendous typing; i have acast on my arm.

[Faith04]

Back to the original post.

It is a very good illustration of the effects of an effective rider vs ineffective rider and I applaud Chester for posting it.

I sometimes get riders come to me as their horse wont do blah blah, they've tried everything etc (all the excuses) and there must be something wrong with the horse WRONG. Sometimes the best training aid for the rider is to show them, that with another rider, it can be done. This will usually promote them to start thinking that it is not the horses fault and that they need to learn how to be more effective and to change their mind set.

There are many people in the show world that I see come out riding in the warmup in a snaffle but with their horses heads tied down by some means or another, who then come out in their double bridles in the ring, hanging onto the curb for dear life incase the horse puts his head up. I have always wanted to pull them off their horses, give them a kick up the butt and tell them that until you can ride correctly in a snaffle don't use a double. Sorry, that's my own little rant

[MissCriss]

Originally Posted by lilrider

Who said anything about a tom thumb? I searched the whole thread and didn't see anything about a tom thumb... maybe I missed it though?

Here it is ! Don't worry, it was hard to catch.

Originally Posted by Faith04

I have always wanted to pull them off their horses, give them a kick up the butt and tell them that until you can ride correctly in a snaffle don't use a double. Sorry, that's my own little rant

Man, agreed! I wish they wouldn't let 4th level dressage riders use doubles . I just see way too many people abusing what the double bridle was really designed for.

Originally Posted by Berlunz

Try getting a tom thumb bit maybe? I am really interested in seeing an after picture.

I don't see how anyone was being negative in the first place, but maybe I am just naive . I see it more of someone just giving their opinion based on their own experience. Some people are good at wording things, others aren't. I know I have trouble trying to be sound as polite as possible lol. My intent is always to be kind, but I guess sometimes it doesn't come out that way, and then I'm not aware of it. I think the main mistake was not asking questions first to see if the horse was being worked in that headset for an hour.

When I saw the horse was being ridden an hour, and noticing the high tail, that took me aback as well, but I refrained from commenting on it as I wasn't sure if it was the whole hour that he was being worked or not, or if maybe they were working more on the rider receiving little responses before asking for a full out frame. As for the tail, I only really noticed a tense horse (look at the tail AND neck) in the last picture that was posted, and as for the first top pictures with the more advanced rider on, the horse didn't seem very stressed, so the "negative" poster DID made a mistake there.

The comments left that a horse with an underneck should be worked slowly and gradually is something I most definitely agree with. Like teaching a little kid math. Start with addition before multiplication. I think the poster was just making an assumption, saying they weren't sure if they were right or not, and then backing up why they thought what they thought, and not going right ahead and saying for sure something was wrong. More like a "IF this is the case, then....". I guess what I'm trying to say is, people make mistakes, and sometimes don't know exactly how to handle a situation, but have good intent. Then again, I can't say so for sure. Just what I have been able to see so far.

I know the thread-starter's point was to show the difference between and advanced rider and novice rider, but even so, the "negative" poster wasn't addressing that fact, just trying to give insight in case it wasn't noticed already--more so to help than criticize. JMO, so please don't get upset with me over it, I just don't like seeing people mad at each other .

I completely understand that you didn't work your horse in that frame for an hour and you definitely know your stuff and wouldn't want to push your horse over the limit, chester, and I am saying this also based on other posts I've seen from you that sound very practical. Just trying to explain what I am guessing both of you guys meant?

[John]

Originally Posted by MissCriss

I completely understand that you didn't work your horse in that frame for an hour and you definitely know your stuff and wouldn't want to push your horse over the limit, chester, and I am saying this also based on other posts I've seen from you that sound very practical. Just trying to explain what I am guessing both of you guys meant?

Why would you think that it would be harder for the horse to work in in frame than out.

[Faith04]

I would like to add in reference to the 'tense' debate, if a horse has been happily working anyway it wanted to for X amount of time and you take it out of it's comfort zone and ask it to work correctly of course it is going to have tenseness issues, the degree would vary depending on the stubborness of the horse as it is no longer doing what it wants. This is the nature of most animals, I know if someone asked me to go ride a cow I wouldn't be too impressed about it

I'm sorry if this analogy is a little obscure

[Shikoika]

Wooo-eeee. People sure do get cranky from time to time...

Fantastic show of your point, Chester. Unfotunatly, I'm really not that great a rider, and Solo goes well enough under even me, I'd love to see someone pop up on him that is really good and show me what he could really do. *le sigh* in the mean time, I attempt to learn.

[yertle]

the other thing to remember is some horses, some breed of horses naturally carry their tails up... it's a great comparison Chester thanks for posting it.

[EquineJessie]

Originally Posted by equestriandynam

collection takes muscle. collection takes time. no horse should carry a rider upside down. longlining can help a horse start building these muscles and learning the frame before a rider is even introduced. That is the ideal way to start teaching collection. Horses werent designed to carry riders, you need to teach them how, and condition them to do so.
It takes work. Many people dont understand that.
But the op has already expressed.. whatever he expressed so this is probably off topic.

And here we come to the age old question. What is collection? Ask 100 people and you'll get 100 different answers.

But, for all intents and purposes and no matter what discipline, I think it's safe to say that collection in its elementary form = a lifted back. When the back is lifted, the stride shortens, the head comes down, and the horse is using his muscles properly and efficiently. He has the proper form so that maneuvers are easy.

A great horseman can get that lifted back literally from the first ride. Yes, it does take a lot of work and a lot of time by a less effective rider. But I've seen colts moving "in form" just w/correct riding. No hanging on the face either.

[equestriandynam]

Originally Posted by Berlunz

Is it a snaffle or is it just straight? Unless he has issues with running off and not stopping I am not sure he needs such a long shank. Try getting a tom thumb bit maybe? I am really interested in seeing an after picture.

here lilrider. page 4 i think

[Chester]

Well the good news for you lot is that my student has said they don't mind me using future pics of them to show their progress.

She has read the thread and got a good laugh out of anyone thinking that she rode with the horse in that frame for an hour. She wishes she could.