[IIIBarsV]

Good thread.

Just for the record, I ask my horses to be flexing pretty much the whole ride, with 5-10 minute breaks in between and walking on a loose rein so they can stretch out and down. Doing this in "reps" is a good way to condition the muscles. The chestnut horse must understand this in some way from previous training, otherwise Chick wouldn't have been able to get the horse framed up in such a short time.

There is a purebred Arabian gelding I trained for three months two years ago, as a four year old. He was safe and solid walk/trot/canter/whoa/back etc but had not done a whole lot of "frame" work- we had started speed control and introduction to it by the end of the third month. Anyways, I could pretty get this horse to do anything for me without a problem. He had come with behavioral issues (biting, jumping around on the lead, just being a spoilt brat- nothing too dangerous), and those were well gone in a month. He was easy as pie to ride and handle. I made sure to give his owner two weeks of lessons on him anyway before he went home. She is a competent rider and rode him around fine.

Unfortunately, the fact that I'm the only one who can get the horse to do anything for me remained a fact. She rode him twice more after he went home- the second ride, he reached around, being the **** that he is, grabbed the stirrup and got his mouth stuck on it. Luckily he just stopped after spinning and spinning, and that was that....... but that was the last time the horse was ridden by the owner, and that was in September 2006.

She hasn't dared ride him. He came back to my stable for a week when they went on vacation in Spring 2007, and I rode him without a problem, bareback. Now he's for sale because she's bought herself a wonderfully sweet and quiet experienced quarter horse mare... and now I'm scrambling to get my pony trained up and sold so I can buy this horse. He'll do "ok" in experienced hands if some end up getting him, but even for other experienced handlers who handled him before, he never was quite the same horse that he is for me.

I hate hearing people at the shows say something like this: "He won't put his head down, I need to ride in draw reins". (Believe it or not I've heard this about ten times in the last 3 years, especially after people come out of a class without a ribbon- western and english alike).

Um no. You do not need draw reins. You need to learn how to use your hands and body more effectively.

I think Chester's point here is that the horse can do the job........ but the rider can't.

[BriLeigh]

2many (hate to continue the thread theivery). But an issue I can see in the first pic is that the reins are too tight (is she trying to stop him or is that normal?). Notice how the bit is being pulled back and its pulling at his mouth? It should just follow along the line of the mouth and then bend down. In the second picture you can see how the bit is laying and how much happier he seems to be without his mouth having pressure on it.

I was going to say the same thing. In the first picture her reins have some pretty good contact to the horse's mouth and with that kind of bit that pulls back the shanks...which would make me raise my head too! In that picture he is trying to get away from the pressure. You can really see the difference in the 2nd picture where her hand in flat on his neck and his head is normal. With a bit like that you can't really expect your horse to keep its head down with constant contact on his mouth. That would be fine in a snaffle.

[Berlunz]

Originally Posted by BriLeigh

I was going to say the same thing. In the first picture her reins have some pretty good contact to the horse's mouth and with that kind of bit that pulls back the shanks...which would make me raise my head too! In that picture he is trying to get away from the pressure. You can really see the difference in the 2nd picture where her hand in flat on his neck and his head is normal. With a bit like that you can't really expect your horse to keep its head down with constant contact on his mouth. That would be fine in a snaffle.

you would be surprised. My first show mare had a bit just like that, shank was just as long and it was a solid piece, she loved that bit for some reason. Whenever I got feedback from the judges the one thing that was consistant from them was "She has a nice headset". She was a bit of a weird horse. The bit was so severe and any other horse I have would flip me if I put it on them but she just responded to it like it was the best thing ever. She had a lot of weird quirks but in this case I am thinking that bit is really not what he needs. Looks like he is not liking the length of the shank pulling on his mouth.

Another thing that could easily be fixed (would really love to see pictures of her now instead of just then). Is her hand position. Her hands are not necessarily "too high". I see some riders that ride with their hands half way up the neck and thats how the horse was trained and the bit allows that. But with this bit when she pulls and her hand is up that high he just kinda looks like he wants to lock his poll and neck up. In which case it would make stopping him harder since then your pulling on his neck muscles and not his mouth since he is bracing himself for the pulling. Isnt it funny how sometimes we think they wont stop but have a harsh bit on them but in reality they just want something softer and are more than willing it stop? (not criticizing just saying horses are so weird sometimes). But going two handed and trying to keep her hands below the horn and back by the saddle might help a lot. If he starts to lock up in the poll, the bit wiggle trick helps a lot. When you wiggle the bit he will drop his head and then ask him to stop instead of continuing to pull while he is locked up.

Bon has some issues with this. Sometimes when he is really hyper he does not want to stop and unfortunately just before I got him a trainer had himi who everyone agrees basically rides the horse via their mouth instead of his seat. So he gets worried sometimes that I am going to start yanking his mouth so he will lock up. I just sit it out and wiggle and ask him to drop out of his locked neck and once he does its easy to stop him. He doesnt do it nearly as often as he used to and most times once I start wiggling he drops right off instead of trying to fight me like he used too.

[cminor]

Great illustration!!!

Are you sure you could not accomplish the same thing with some sort of gimmick? (sarcastic.)lol.

[MaggieSue]

Its amazing how many of the "horses fault" problems can be fixed when the rider starts to ride correctly isnt it?

Yes it is...which is why I try to discourage all the 'artificial aids' that people like to promote here. There's no reason for them-if you ride correctly.
I also love in the 'critique my horse' section when they say, critique the horse, not the rider ...hello....usually it's the riders fault for the horses error.

[equestriandynam]

i dont think a tom thumb is going to be a very good idea for the little guy.

[lilrider]

Originally Posted by equestriandynam

i dont think a tom thumb is going to be a very good idea for the little guy.

Who said anything about a tom thumb? I searched the whole thread and didn't see anything about a tom thumb... maybe I missed it though?

[2manypetz]

This is the bit she uses, it came with the horse. Please excuse my ignorance I do not know what it is. I stated earlier that this was the bit that he was happiest in, he hated a straight, a tom thumb, and a "wonderbit". He does this when she rides with a halter and lead rope some too. Rememebr he was trained English as a Saddlebred. Her trainer is very proud of the way Cecilia can get him go go so well on a loose rein. Here is a pic of her riding another saddlbred in a double bridle in a class that they won. I thought that was some tight rein holding. EEK! But I guess that is waht they were looking for.


this is from the same day as the picure I posted earlier this is at a walk, the other where is head is up furtehr is when he was going into a trot.

Here he is in a halter and lead rope

We had had him for about 2 weeks at the time that the first picture I posted in this thread was taken. They were just learning each other, they have gotten better, but are not "there" yet. I will have her look at her and his pictures I am sure she will learn by looking, and thinking. I always have my piano students listen to a recording to themselves, it helps a lot, I think I will video tape her riding and see what she thinks, I know what you think you are doing is not always what you really are doing. Thanks for all the good ideas everyone. It is good to have many opionions from many takes and angles. Will give us a lot to think about and try!

[Dawn]

That's not a bit designed to be used with direct contact.

Imo, any horses having severe issues with his head/mouth needs to go straight back to a snaffle and work back up.

[horseyfrk145]

Very good point, SL. I agree completely.