[madvoice]

Could be just the horse too. Horses can do all sorts of things with their tails that have absolutely nothing to do with pain. Plus at the moment of the horse really lifting its tail have you possibly considered it was breaking wind?

[equestriandynam]

'After about an hour of solid work we ended up with this'

When you first started:


See how the tail got higher and higher from when you first started??

[equestriandynam]

Originally Posted by madvoice

Could be just the horse too. Horses can do all sorts of things with their tails that have absolutely nothing to do with pain. Plus at the moment of the horse really lifting its tail have you possibly considered it was breaking wind?

never said anything about pain. i am not saying indefinately this is whats going on. but its very likely.
I like how if i look at all the pictures posted, the more time that has elapsed in his new collected frame the higher his tail went. In the two that have him with his head out, the tail is pretty much all the way down.
I am not against collection, but i do believe it can be difficult for the horse, and its a proven fact. When you take an upside-down horse and ask him to carry himself for a solid hour out of nowhere, its not farfetched to think 'maybe you are overworking him'

[Chester]

Originally Posted by equestriandynam

'After about an hour of solid work we ended up with this'

When you first started:


See how the tail got higher and higher from when you first started??

You will notice that my title reads The difference correct RIDING makes.

You will also notice that it is getting darker in the pics.

The horse was ridden correctly for about the first 10 minutes. To see what it could do.

The hard work was done by the RIDER. The rider was working hard.

I do not doubt that by the end of the lesson the horse was only too glad for it to finish and end it so it could go eat its dinner. It is also a spoilt little thing that the owner has not previously demanded of. If it wanted to go left then left it went with no real riding from the passenger. This afternoon it learnt that when a leg was put on it that something was expected of it. It was not allowed to walk backwards from a halt. Nor was it allowed to leave the arena when it thought that this work was no fun. Learning you will no longer be able to cart your rider over the country at your will is never pleasant for a horse.

The picture that I posted showing the final result was from the rider riding more correctly. No different to the first. Correct riding.

The horse was not overworked, or taxed too far. A lot of the work that was done was the basic stuff we should all do like circles and serpentines.

The point of posting this thread was to show people that it is riding that gets results, not gadgets that tie a horse into a position they think is good..

[Chester]

Originally Posted by chester

Originally Posted by equestriandynam

When you take an upside-down horse and ask him to carry himself for a solid hour out of nowhere, its not farfetched to think 'maybe you are overworking him'

And you think that the above person on that horse riding the way they started were any where near being able to ride a horse in a collected way to start with let alone for an hour solid??????

[equestriandynam]

just travel with me here. you kept the horse in that frame for an hour when its very likely he never even knew what the frame was or been in it with a rider on his back. right?
An upside-down horse doesnt use the muscles it needs to engage their HQ's and support their back. Right?
Now look at a set of underworked flabby arms, like mine. *jiggles arm*
These are underused muscles. I can pick up books, and laundry, and logs, and standards.. But ask me to do 50 push ups.. that wouldnt go over too well. My muscles that once allowed me to do that are no longer able to because over time i have not had to do a push up in a while.. so my muscles of course are smaller and weaker. Ask me to do 10 push ups, i will. Ask me to do 10 a night and i can. And eventually i will be able to do 50.
Its simple. 50 pushups right now is called 'overworking' i would be sore in the morning and i wouldnt like the practice too much after that. 10 pushups is maxing out, waking up in the morning limber and ready for progress.
Which do you want the horse to be?
By all means keep the horses head down, but if he needs to learn the basics and build muscle before going Grand prix for an hour thats not an 'outrageous' idea at all is it??

[Chester]

Originally Posted by equestriandynam

just travel with me here. you kept the horse in that frame for an hour when its very likely he never even knew what the frame was or been in it with a rider on his back. right?

Excuse me but it is nearly midnight for me and you are wearing my patience extremely thin.

Please go back, read the typing properly and tell me where in blue blazes you are getting the nonsensical idea that that horse was ridden in that frame for an hour. Who the blazes do you think rode it for that hour in that frame?

The rider I was teaching to ride her own horse couldn't ride that horse in that frame for 10 minutes straight if she tried currently. Blind freddy could see that for themself in the first photo I posted of them starting out today.

I really cannot be bothered to argue with a person who is not reading. If you wish to believe that that rider rode that horse for an hour in that frame, go for it.

Now I am off to find an empty fruitloop box. I am sure there is one somewhere.

[John]

A very good example of the myth that a horse can not carry a rider collected from the start!! There is more damage done to green horses carrying their rider strung out while the rider is waiting for page twenty six of some old manual to begin to teach the horse to collect.

[equestriandynam]

Originally Posted by John

A very good example of the myth that a horse can not carry a rider collected from the start!! There is more damage done to green horses carrying their rider strung out while the rider is waiting for page twenty six of some old manual to begin to teach the horse to collect.

collection takes muscle. collection takes time. no horse should carry a rider upside down. longlining can help a horse start building these muscles and learning the frame before a rider is even introduced. That is the ideal way to start teaching collection. Horses werent designed to carry riders, you need to teach them how, and condition them to do so.
It takes work. Many people dont understand that.
But the op has already expressed.. whatever he expressed so this is probably off topic.

[2manypetz]

My daughter is trying to get her ASB to get his nose down, he does nice at a walk, he goes right in to a trot and canter, but when he does his nose goes up. After a while it goes down, with lots of time and work. She is working with her tainer and she has long lessons, and he gets better everytime, repitition for both of them to learn what to do. My daughter is a very good rider, but likes to go fast, the trainer is trying to teach her to slow down. I don't pay good attention at the lessons, but i know she talks about legs and hands and small circles and all this stuff.

This horse and my daughter are in great shape becasue she rides him every day. Most of the time it is across in a CRP field. Probably put about 8 miles on him a day. most of that is just fun and not paying attention to his head I am sure she is just trying to get him to jump creeks and galloping , just having fun with her horse. She was riding last night in her lesson from 5:30 till 7:00. Neither one were tried or nor was the horse sweating or seemed irratated.

I did not see results like yours though. What do you suggest? Here is a picture of when we first got him, with the nose up, I do not have a recent picture, to show the difference, but will get one. We do not use any artifical aids to gain the head set, We want it to be gained by good riding, and training. The trainer bred, raised and started training this horse English, but he was so tense and scared of everything, she switched to western, we got the horse and with her help are trying to finish him off. My daughter has turned this horse that was scared of his own shadow in to one that will do anything for her with no spook, she now trail rides him, through water and over logs and everything. I never thought that possible. That was the first thing we had to do was get him to grow a brain, he was the sookest thing I had ever met.

This trainer says that she has found out that the dam has a genetic thing where there is a flap that goes down in their throat that closes off breathing. He does make a little pig grunt noise when his head is nice. Some people that have these horses actually have surgery on them to cut the flap out, becasue of this and not wanting to have their head "nice" I really dont want or think we will do this, but you seem very knowledgeable and I was just wondering you opinion. Have you ever heard of this? I do not want to make this into a debate and mess up this post. But I have agreed with all the posts you have posted on Chester, and value your opinion.

We have had him since Sept. The first pic was in Sept, the last was last weekend. Not a good one for the head thing, but he is a totally differnt animal now. My daughter does not really even care about showing or anything, but would like to take him to 4H, small shows, so we dont need anything perfect, but he sure is pretty when he gets his head nice. Next week they are going to go back to saddlseat riding on him.