[Rhythm 'n Blues]

This haunches in for a canter depart must be a western thing. Sadly I don't get how it works, or the theory behind it, but sadly that's just me. I know people do it, but I don't know why you would to do it. Same with the tipping the nose to the outside to get the canter lead. It has been drilled into my head that it is very very wrong to do both, and I'm sorry, but for the life of me, I can't grasp the concept as to why anyone would want to or do it.

[GotaDunQH]

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

This haunches in for a canter depart must be a western thing. Sadly I don't get how it works, or the theory behind it, but sadly that's just me. I know people do it, but I don't know why you would to do it. Same with the tipping the nose to the outside to get the canter lead. It has been drilled into my head that it is very very wrong to do both, and I'm sorry, but for the life of me, I can't grasp the concept as to why anyone would want to or do it.

I wouldn't say it's a western thing, I keep my horse straight in his entire body when I lope off. I will say, I have seen many of the horses at my AQHA shows...really reach with that inside hind back leg at the depart which almost LOOKS like the horse is kicking the hip in. Where I've seen it done alot (and this was a few years ago) was with Saddlebreds in the canter depart. They never quite depart the canter straight-bodied but are canted in. A friend of mine showed ASB's for years and went to a ton of shows with her....not many of them departed straight.

Jennifer

[Rhythm 'n Blues]

^^ huh...I know the nose tip to the outside thing is common in the H/J land.

I remember my old BO (heavy heavy into WP) was trying to get their QH to move his hinney MORE to the inside during the entire time he was looping! He already did it, but they wanted more. I asked why & the reason I got was "that's the way it's done & what wins" <-- that was pretty much my reaction, so I didn't go any further! There other questionable things done, so I just never "went there"

[LindaMM]

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

This haunches in for a canter depart must be a western thing. Sadly I don't get how it works, or the theory behind it, but sadly that's just me. I know people do it, but I don't know why you would to do it. Same with the tipping the nose to the outside to get the canter lead. It has been drilled into my head that it is very very wrong to do both, and I'm sorry, but for the life of me, I can't grasp the concept as to why anyone would want to or do it.

The shoulder out / haunches in canter depart is an inelegant way of getting the correct lead if the horse is stubborn about it. Why does it work? Because in order to take the wrong lead, the horse has to literally leap into the canter. For example, if tracking right, and the haunches are in, the left hind has to make a tremendous effort in order to lead.

This technique sets up the horse so it is easier for the horse to take the correct lead, and hard for him to take the wrong lead.

ETA: It is not considered correct, and should be used as a last resort only. I had to teach my mare her leads using the technique, as I could NOT get her to take the right lead, period. Not at liberty, not under saddle. But, while it got her to take the lead, it was also hard to get her to transition to a standard, correct-bend departure.

[SpinThatPony]

Originally Posted by LindaMM

This technique sets up the horse so it is easier for the horse to take the correct lead, and hard for him to take the wrong lead.

ETA: It is not considered correct, and should be used as a last resort only. I had to teach my mare her leads using the technique, as I could NOT get her to take the right lead, period. Not at liberty, not under saddle. But, while it got her to take the lead, it was also hard to get her to transition to a standard, correct-bend departure.

Linda, this is exacty what i'm tryin to get accomplished. Your mare sounds like mine. Won't take the left lead, or drags the rear. How did you eventually teach her this manuever and pick up the lead?. I'm guessin alot of moving her hindquarters over?

[LindaMM]

Originally Posted by SpinThatPony

Linda, this is exacty what i'm tryin to get accomplished. Your mare sounds like mine. Won't take the left lead, or drags the rear. How did you eventually teach her this manuever and pick up the lead?. I'm guessin alot of moving her hindquarters over?

With my mare, I had trouble with the right lead (i.e. going clockwise).

I would start the exercise in one corner, and at the trot, work laterally across the arena. Then, just as we get to the opposite corner, I would tip the nose out, and using my outside leg, ask for the canter depart. Once I felt the thrust from the hind, I would immediately bring the nose back in. Eventually I just asked for less and less shoulder/nose out, and relied more on the leg aid.

I had to balance this with more lateral work, so she did not associate the rein-aid with the canter cue - which she did a couple of times. I also did a lot of work with her on both sides - not just under saddle, either. I started leading her from the off side, and tacking up from the off side, as well as mounting. All this has come in quite handy, as we do a lot of trail riding, and you can't always work on the left side out there.

[IIIBarsV]

1) Halt 20 feet off the rail.

2) Back horse up (GENTLY, but with impulsion). No more than 10 steps.

3) Halt. Relax

4) Ask for a couple steps haunches-inside.

5) Ask for a couple steps forehand-outside. Gentle rein pressure to keep horse bent to the inside with their nose, slightly.

6) Lift your inside hip.

7) Apply your outside leg aid.

8) Lope off. Voice cue if needed. If you have a lazy horse, carry crop/whip in outside hand, give them a crack with voice cue (aka "MOVE YOUR TUSH NOW!").

9) Maintain inside bend and allow your inside hip to relax again as the horse moves into their first/second strides.

10) Balance horse on straight line as necessary.

Goals/benefits of this method:

- Have control of horse's body, so that you can put them anywhere, anyhow.

- Allow horse to get a correct-lead halt/walk-lope transition if they've been having trouble getting correct lead from a halt or walk. Important for Horsemanship/Equitation Patterns (AQHA style).

- Get horse thinking about your body position. Hence "lift inside hip". They will make the connection for changing bend, and changing leads when used later on.

- Basis for higher-than-normal collection, especially half-pass at the canter, haunches-in, some lateral movements, etc. These is probably an easier way to teach these, but these seem to do the job fairly efficiently for me.

- Allows you better control of the horse's bum while in motion. My biggest pet peeve is a horse who swings out haunches at the canter or won't respond easily to outside leg aides. This exercise of halt/walk-lope/canter transitions really seems to get a lot more responsiveness on that aspect.

- Seems to help greenies balance initially, rather than starting them off straight. A little more trouble with haunches control from leg aides without this exercise. Advanced horses who have progressed from this point will be able to stay straight easily for walk/halt-lope/canter transitions.

- Basis for slow, highly-elevated canter, because it is 99% used in conjunction with half-halt. My little Wisher-pooh has mastered this one. You can practically have her hopping like a Lippizan with light application of rein and enough leg. lol

- Great for slowing down a "fast cantering" horse who tries to grab the bit, because you're refocusing the energy and transitioning downward again and re-asking as soon as you feel them get "flat".

Downsides:

- Overdoing this one, or without switching up by asking the horse to move straight, will result in a horse who will swing in when they feel your outside leg, and may half-pass on you. Not so great when you're actually asking them to lope off in a pleasure class.

- Certain Dominant Minded Horses (coughcough The Real 3Bars5) may take advantage of knowing how to do this by demonstrating the initial departure multiple times when they're supposed to be performing a straight-line canter during a pattern class...

- If your horse has not been properly conditioned, ridden, and strengthened for a solid chunk of time (several months) to be able to handle the power and balance required for a smooth walk/halt-lope/canter transition, then you will absolutely teach that horse to do a nice head-toss at your departure. This is because they lack the strength to gather properly, and need to toss their heads in order to create some momentum. Correcting the habitual head-toss is very difficult and usually requires for you to go back to basics and do a more in-depth strengthening regime. (Tying Down Is Not Acceptable IMO- you made the problem, you do the legwork to fix it).

- Overdoing the "highly collected canter" in initial learning stages, trying to hold it for long periods, is going to fatigue your horse. Allow short transitions. Ie, one transition has 4-5 strides, then you walk... maybe do 3-4 transitions in a row, then walk for a while. Slowly increase the amount of canter strides on a day-by-day/week-by-week basis. Remember, you are conditioning MUSCLE. Fatigue that horse and they will find ways to cheat out of doing it correctly.

Off the top of my head, that's pretty much it.

As always, I am wide open to critique and suggestions.

[Rhythm 'n Blues]

Originally Posted by LindaMM

I would start the exercise in one corner, and at the trot, work laterally across the arena. Then, just as we get to the opposite corner, I would tip the nose out, and using my outside leg, ask for the canter depart.

See I don't get it....Horses pick up their canter leads with the outside hind 1st -- they step up & weight that foot, then pick up and strike off with the inside hind & front feet. You also always want your horse on your outside rein, and to tip the nose to the outside would loose that. So to me doing any kinda hinney moving or tipping nose out seems totally backwards to me & goes against all my thought processes.

While I've had horses who refuse to canter on 1 lead, there have always been other issues further back that required more time spent on them, and once those were fixed up the canter came easily to them.

Like I said ealier, I just don't don't get it. I understand the whoe "different strokes for different folks" thing, and I have no issues if someone wants to do that with their own horses and it's not that I'm not open to the idea, trust me, I've tried to wrap my head around this far more than once, and it still just boggles my brain!