[Bruce Wiley]

Attending those or any clinics won't really give the whole picture or provide the skills that is needed to be able to solve this and other problems.
With a person only attaining a small amount of knowledge can sometimes cause things to become worse. And for this reason where there are holes in the learned information, which can effect those gained training techniques.

Before we can teach, clearly the knowledge must be intact plus the training delivery.
One of the strong points of the indivdual are knowing how to out think the horse, in order to get him to do as requested, and without employing human aggressive force.
So, it is not about being a pushover.

Most likely, it is a leadership issue between the two of you with the battle present and of who's in charge.
With you hand walking him, there is that impression he can still take flight or become engulf into a fight with it's handler.

Whether he's an ALPHA in a herd of horses, he must still submit to his human leader and counterpart.

I can hear the next question now on how and what to do?
Those indivduals should seek the help and assistance from an experienced and comeptent trainer. The owner involvement should take place once the horse has become consistently correct, where the trainer could then be able to explain and show how to maintain the correctness.
Then, it become very important to have learned and gained that valueable knowledge so that the person could be able to take on this or another issue that might occur.

Its about us being first, and then comes the horse that need the training.


I hope this insight helps.

[GottaRide]

It sounds like a confidence issue to me. What does he do when he experiences new obstacles in a comfortable, controlled environment? Will he approach them easily with curiosity? Will he side step it & try to ignore it? Is it a huge deal that there is something new & scary and he loses all focus on doing the right thing?

Some things you can do on your usual trail rides:

When you are trying to get in front of your group & he balks, get off and lead him ahead of the group for a minute before getting back on.

Take every opportunity to "trail blaze" when riding with the group. Go around trees the opposite way of everyone else. Venture into the woods with the rest of the group in sight.

Go out with the group as normal, but at some point during the ride dismount and take him away from the group. Wait until the rest of the group is out of sight before you get back on and ride back to meet up with everyone else.

[ImDunToImpress]

Originally Posted by GottaRide

It sounds like a confidence issue to me. What does he do when he experiences new obstacles in a comfortable, controlled environment? Will he approach them easily with curiosity? Will he side step it & try to ignore it? Is it a huge deal that there is something new & scary and he loses all focus on doing the right thing?

Some things you can do on your usual trail rides:

When you are trying to get in front of your group & he balks, get off and lead him ahead of the group for a minute before getting back on.

Take every opportunity to "trail blaze" when riding with the group. Go around trees the opposite way of everyone else. Venture into the woods with the rest of the group in sight.

Go out with the group as normal, but at some point during the ride dismount and take him away from the group. Wait until the rest of the group is out of sight before you get back on and ride back to meet up with everyone else.

I'll try to answer these in the order they were asked, good questions!

1.) When something new is encountered, he does warily check it out but he is a good thinker and not a quick bolter. He will stop and stare at it. His typical thing is to try to walk around it the first time, but after that he will walk right up to it without fear or question.

2.) When with other riders, I can maneuver him off to the side around trees and such, we can take a different course. There are a few times where he has shown he can ride off alone, but 95% of the time he simply refuses. (point him towards home and he'll happily lead the way)

3.) Stopping and letting the rest of the group go ahead is no issue whatsoever. He does get antsy when he can't see them anymore, but he is not difficult to hold back. He will walk at a normal pace until we catch up to them, no real hurry.

The issue is with just me and him, trying to go out alone. I have even tried riding him in one of the smaller pastures, a place he knows well, and he will ride around in it but he moves slower, almost hesitantly, but not a "fear" hesitance...more like laziness, or stubborness. I have often wondered if it is a confidence issue with him, or an attitude issue. I can ride him alone in an indoor arena with no issues, but set foot outside and he starts balking, hesitating, trying to turn around, stopping dead, etc. Maybe it's barn sourness? But we go out for a lot of rides, he doesn't sit for long before our next outage.

Did that help any?

[jedy]

how about long lining?

[Blue_rose2001]

Sounds like he is "barn sour" in the meaning of not being a leader. He is looking to you for the confidence to "be a leader or loner". When he balks, gets sideways and such on the trail when he is slightly in front. It is disrespectful! He finds out that you let him get out of that situation. Do get off, lead him in front, and tell other riders to ride behind or beside you and not in front. This seems like the safest option for you right now. He still is not ALONE but required to lead. If he refuses when you get on after leading in front. A small swat may be required. If you take a leadrope and loop it over your horn, first try a small swat on the shoulder. Let the taps get harder if he resists. If he is used to a crop, might be time to use one! When he does move out on his own, APPLY THE PRAISE!! give him some love (without stopping). The only way for him to gain confidence is to be the leader! The more he does it, the more confident he will be. Try doing this for several weeks and then try going small distances from your barn-maybe back to the field you can do it in but he is hesitant about.

I honestly think he is testing you to see if you will "make" him do it, or if he can be a crybaby and get his way (not doing it). Just being naughty. He should not be allowed to behave like that. Could lead to bigger problems later.

[meljean]

This is actually fairly easy to fix, and simple, but it does require persistence.

Take his feed with you, I normally don't like to let eat in bridle, but will overlook that.
Do not drink anything before you go, and go to bathroom before mounting up.

Ride off. When he balks, just sit there. Don't let him turn back towards barn. Keep his head turned in direction you want to go, and only "argue" with him as to which way his head is facing, and use aids then and only then. And then just sit. Do not talk to him, and do not battle with him as to going forward, just make sure his head is facing in direction you want to go. You can run through multiplications tables in head, but do not get off, do not battle, do not talk, do nothing other than to keep head pointed way you want to go.

If he takes a step in your planned direction of travel, lightly give aids to go forward, no talking, just go forward as if nothing has happened and it was your idea to sit there anyway. Not tiring to you after all. Do not praise, pat, just continue your ride.
Be very blase about entire matter.

If after first step, he balks again, go back to sitting and making sure he is facing correct direction. And then just wait him out.

When he moves off and gives you 5 or 6 good strides, one quiet pat on neck and a quiet "good boy." Then be quiet again.

Once he has moved at least 1/4 mile or so from original balk, then may dismount and feed him right there. And then mount up and continue in original direction. Do not feed him when you go back to barn, and do not turn back toward home after feeding. And do not feed him in same place every time ride off, as he will then balk there. And after a week or two of him consistently riding off nicely, then cut down on feed until only light snack, and feed as usual at barn.

This will get him to stop associating feed with feed area/stall/paddock/feed pan. That will help to end this behavior too.

Secondly, the whole key to the just sitting and waiting him out, and this is why I said no drinking, and use restroom, is there is no force/battle involved. You are comfortable sitting right there enjoying view, and resting quite well thank you very much. And don't get antsy in mind, as he will pick up on this. Just think your own thoughts and as I said, no talking.

The great R.P. Glenn, a master Saddlebred Trainer, was wonderful with horses, he had a horse that was barn soured, and would not leave stabling area. At that time, early 1900's it was not uncommon for Saddlebreds and other breeds to be trained on roads, or ridden to Fairgrounds to be worked. Crowds would gather to watch Tom Bass work the great Belle Beach, but I digress... Anyway, Mr. Glenn got on this barn sour horse, and rode off, and when the horse balked, he just sat. This horse was a champion balker, and it was quite a battle of wills, not strength, just wills. Mr. Glenn sat, and when it began growing cool, had his groom bring him a coat out, and then he sat some more. Never fighting with horse, just sitting. Every now and then horse would move in correct direction, and then try to turn and Mr. Glenn would turn him around, and just sit some more. Supper time came, and Mr. Glenn had his supper brought to him while he ate, he just sat. Finally the horse moved off in correct direction with no problem and went for a long ride.

When Mr. Glenn was questioned as to what he would have done if horse had wanted to stay there all night, he replied, "have them bring me a blanket."

The handwalking him is counterproductive, as 1. he has gotten you off of his back. 2. you aren't going to walk as far as he would with you riding and 3. after a nice leisurely walk, with him not doing any work, he will get to go back and be fed. So all in all a nice day, but not much fun for you.

This is a smart horse, and he has gotten your number, the little wheeling around, snorting and half hearted rears are meant to dissuade you from riding, and it has worked, because he has trained you not to expect to be able to ride him.

The whole key to this is you are really exerting no energy by sitting, and not giving him anything to fight against, he is one doing all the work. It really doesn't matter to you if you sit and enjoy the view while resting, or riding him.

This is something I have used many times, it generally takes no more than three or four times to get it across, and if horse has some age on him even less, as they know better.

As for the riding with friends, once other is settled, every now and then circle off in large loops away from each other, then rejoin. Do over and over while riding, until can leave without problems, you may have to use "sit" technique here too a little bit.

[ImDunToImpress]

Thanks for the great ideas! I am going to try those over the next few weeks and see how it goes!