[Haas Horse Farm]

Then how would you be able to see wild bay on an AA tested horse if it was not dominant over A?

Also my understanding on this comes from others who have a ton more experience than me on this... that have been studying colors for years in the lab and in the breeding barn. I know what my sources are for my understanding... do you have a source for yours?

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by Haas Horse Farm

Then how would you be able to see wild bay on an AA tested horse if it was not dominant over A?

Because he was really AtAt. We know currently all forms of Agouti, barring the new test for brown, test as A, so A bay tests the same as A wild bay tests the same as A brown (until now).

Also my understanding on this comes from others who have a ton more experience than me on this... that have been studying colors for years in the lab and in the breeding barn. I know what my sources are for my understanding... do you have a source for yours?

I didn't say you were wrong, I was just saying I could believe it, but it didn't make sense in my mind given the vast prevalence of normal bay over wild bay. I will see what info I can find on the order of dominance - I used to know it but the memory is not here right now.

[RiddleMeThis]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Because he was really AtAt. We know currently all forms of Agouti, barring the new test for brown, test as A, so A bay tests the same as A wild bay tests the same as A brown (until now).

Yep same here. Again I dont disagree with you. Not sure where I stand. I think I remember a wild bay out of two normal bay parents. But since you brought up them being AA how many wild bays tests aa?

[Haas Horse Farm]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Because he was really AtAt. We know currently all forms of Agouti, barring the new test for brown, test as A, so A bay tests the same as A wild bay tests the same as A brown (until now).

What? If the horse was wild bay he would not test as At... ever... that is brown not wild bay.. there is no test for wild bay A+ just black a and brown At.

Originally Posted by RiddleMeThis

Yep same here. Again I dont disagree with you. Not sure where I stand. I think I remember a wild bay out of two normal bay parents. But since you brought up them being AA how many wild bays tests aa?

A wild bay will never test aa as that would make it a black horse. Sorry I think you have really confused your alphabet. You would not get a wild bay out of two bays... that are both just bay. Instead of guessing show me the wild bay out of two normal bays... along with the test for Agouti. I just know what I have learned and it seems to hold true. A wild bay gene cannot hide... a brown gene can...

[RiddleMeThis]

Originally Posted by Haas Horse Farm

A wild bay will never test aa as that would make it a black horse.

Exactly. They will always test Aa or AA (as of now), so what was your point in asking about wild bays that test AA?

Sorry I think you have really confused your alphabet.

Nope alphabet is fine. Thanks for your concern though.

You would not get a wild bay out of two bays... that are both just bay. Instead of guessing show me the wild bay out of two normal bays... along with the test for Agouti. I just know what I have learned and it seems to hold true. A wild bay gene cannot hide... a brown gene can...

Im looking for it actually. Remember reading it on another forum but there search isnt my favorite. And like I said I THINK I remember reading, Im not sure. But I sort of feel along the lines of what JB said. If it was dominant I feel there would be more wild bays than normal bays, just like there are more black based horses than red based horse, or like there are more people with brown eyes than there are people with blue eyes. But I dont know.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by Haas Horse Farm

You would not get a wild bay out of two bays... that are both just bay.

If bay dominate over wild bay, then you sure can get wild bay out of 2 bays - AAt + AAt can give you AtAt.

Ok, I had to go searching, and came up with this, from http://www.morgancolors.com/basecolors.htm

Evidence suggests that there is an order of dominance amongst the various agoutis, with wild bay (the most restrictive of black) being dominant to bay, and bay being dominant to brown (the least restrictive of black).

So, that is not an absolute, but does go back to the order of wild bay-bay-brown. If that is the case, then no, two bays cannot produce a wild bay.

That also goes back to what I was saying earlier in that either bay had to be dominant (which is apparently not the case) or that wild bay has been bred out, for the most part (purposefully or not), because otherwise wild bay would dominate the general population, and it doesn't. The same thing happened with chestnut - some breeds have had black bred out, for the most part, so the recessive chestnut has dominated those particular breeds (think Belgian drafts and fjords).

[accphotography]

Well, while I respect that site tremendously, they are not *proof* IMO. Just yet another opinion that leans to wild bay being dominant. I am intrigued now... I will do some research tonight and I'll see what I can find.

ACC

[JBandRio]

acc, I agree with you but I did find reference to that order on several other sites as well. They don't claim to be proof either, just saying that evidences points to...

[ryu2832]

Originally Posted by accphotography

Me too... but how about that glass of wine anyway. LOL!

No, really. I'm with JB that I need to sit down and draw some of this out and see what I can come up with.

Ryu... maybe I missed it but do you have anything that would say/show how one pattern would influence another despite being at different development times?

ACC

The different genes have different mechanisms, just like how the different colors layer on top of each other.

Tobiano say color on the face is ok, other patterns take it off. Once it's off, it's off because the pigment cells are gone (dead). White patterns are all subtractive. You start with a colored horse, and take color away.

So it's all a ripple effect. Once a cell reaches it's destination one cell becomes 2,2becomes 4, 4 becomes 8.... My theory is that the longer the cells have to divide the smoother/larger the color pattern is.

If I knew more of the pattern names I could help out more, but I really don't know the patterns at all.

[RiddleMeThis]

Originally Posted by ryu2832

The different genes have different mechanisms, just like how the different colors layer on top of each other.

Tobiano say color on the face is ok, other patterns take it off. Once it's off, it's off because the pigment cells are gone (dead). White patterns are all subtractive. You start with a colored horse, and take color away.

So it's all a ripple effect. Once a cell reaches it's destination one cell becomes 2,2becomes 4, 4 becomes 8.... My theory is that the longer the cells have to divide the smoother/larger the color pattern is.

If I knew more of the pattern names I could help out more, but I really don't know the patterns at all.

Ok I see how that relates to how white gets put on the horse, but I dont get how that is going to influence how say "minimal pattern a" will make "pattern b" look like a max pattern A, since Pattern A isnt putting the white, pattern b is. And how can minimal pattern A effect the shape of pattern b, when in minimal form pattern A doesnt put white there?