[CrazyHorse]

Originally Posted by endurgirl

I'm certain I wouldn't have to worry about you riding him and messing him up............with you excuses and all.......................................



The secret's out. Hang loose!!!

Meh...you're probably right

[tlwidener]

Originally Posted by Tallpine

Well, I was just wondering... I spent several years learning to not ride that way

I'll bet you don't ride cutting horses though.

[cutter123]

Tallpine and others, remember, there are many different forms of horsemanship. The rider has to ride in such a way as to allow the horse to make the moves he expects him to make. Different moves, such as dressage vs. cutting for example, are going to require a different posture. The horse mirrors the rider in many ways. A dressage horse is collected and very upright and so the rider will be. A cutter has to crouch and suck back. Everything is a back up in cutting. So the rider gets crouchy and bows out his lower back in order to allow the horse to come back through him.

A rider who sits "tall in the saddle" on a cutting horse has two distinct disadvantages.
First, his body weight will push the horse forward. Since we do not have the use of our hand to correct the mistakes our body makes, the horse will lose his working advantage on a cow. If he goes forward he puts pressure on the cow and it will end up in a chasing situation. That's the fastest way to lose a cutting. Do it too much and you will end up with a scared, confused horse who is being hindered while trying to do his job. A horse that keeps getting beat by cattle will get frustrated and lose confidence.

On the other hand, a horse who's rider stays out of his way and helps him when he needs help will make a confident horse who starts feeling like superman because he can stop any cow.

The second thing that happens when a rider sits up tall in the saddle is that their upper body gets to swaying around and bobbling around too much with the force of the moves. This causes the rider to start getting behind and out of sync with the horse. Cutting is quick and your timing has to be laser sharp or else everything can go to **** really fast. The line between winning big and crashing and burning is pretty thin.

Cutters have to ride with their body because they do not have the option of using their reins. This is where PHYSICS comes in. Think about irrigating a field. There's two ways to do it. You can install a pump and use energy to force the water up a hill.... or, you can put the irrigation box at the top of the field and let gravity do the irrigating for you. You don't have to train or force water to run downhill. It just does.

When training a cutting horse, a good cutting horse rider/trainer will use this sort of reasoning to their advantage. They sit in such a way to make the job of the horse as easy as possible. Trust me, cutters would not sit kneed up and bowed out back if that wasn't the best way, biomechanically, to sit so the horse can move. We know this because we can witness it at any cutting any day. You see a rider who is sitting like a buckaroo cowboy all tall in the saddle with super long stirrups, you see a rider who loses a cutting. You see a rider who cannot EVER put his hand down because his body bobbling around will not help the horse hold the ground.

Actually, at our barn, we help a lot of dressage riders, cowboys, and others learn how to communicate with their horse. Most of them are sceptical when we raise their stirrups up and teach them how to soften their lower back. That is, they are sceptical until they start FEELING how the communication starts happening with their horse. When you get out of your horse's way, all of a sudden, horse training is easy. You don't have to TRAIN on a horse or make it do all these things, with lots of force and muscle and endless drilling, you just have to ride them in such a way as to make it easy for them to feel what you want them to do. They just do it.

Horsemanship isn't some static pose. This is because horses are moving. When they are moving forward in an upright stance, a rider sits one way to ensure that movement. When they are moving laterally and sucking back, the rider needs to sit another way. You would not go try to do ballet moving like a running back. And you would not step onto the gridiron and try to be a running back moving like a ballerina. There might be similar foundations of good movement in both these athletes, but when it comes to specialization, they need to move the way that suits their sport.

Now as for Endurgirl's trainer. Could we be picky? Sure, I suppose we could. We could also pick on every Grand Prix jumper going over a huge jump looking like they are almost falling off their horse. But that is wagging the dog if you ask me. The proof is in the pudding. Are they going over a huge jump and staying out of their horse's way? Is their horse sane, happy, and sound? Yep, okay, well then forget the judgement until you can go beat them. Same with cutters. Some of those trainers don't ride perfect. Sometimes in competition that happens, but they have the feel and the timing to get the job done, even if the equitation isn't precise. Well they aren't the one being judged, the horse is. If endurgirl's trainer keeps her horse going well and he is sane, happy and sound, and they win (and I know they do, endurgirl wins quite a bit, and cutting is probably the HARDEST thing to win consistently), then you can bet something is going right.

Cutting horses don't last if they are trained with muscle and force. They either go crippled or they fry their brains. Now Tex has been around winning cuttings for several years that I know about. He looks to be in good flesh and has a soft eye.

I've been around cutters at all levels for a long time now, and I can tell you, one can tell the scared forced kind. Tex isn't in that category. What I always say, when it comes to horsemanship, is PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING. Is someone turning out good horses, happy, sound, sane, and PERFORMING? Watch how a horse moves and it will tell you if the rider is doing a good job.

Here are some pics that illustrate what I mean. In this picture, in order to come back with the cow, Stylish has to stop on his hip, and then rock back on his hocks and fold though himself. So I have slid to the front of the saddle and bowed out my back, my weight right over my feet with a lot of weight in my stirrups. My stirrups are short enough that I can sit as if I am standing playing shortstop...an athletic position. If I'm over my feet, then the horse can make a big huge move. If I'm on my butt, then I am going to get bobbled around like a weeble wobble.



In the next second, the horse's nose has to go first with the cow. The rider cannot lean or try to turn for his horse. If he does, the horse will be pushed forward and around and cannot make a clean turn. So the rider has to allow the horse's lateral movement to slide her to the outside of the turn. Again, short stirrups come in handy here, as the rider can push down in that outside stirrup and just push off on it to stay with the horse.



A rider is going to adopt different looks for different movements. Here is the same rider on different horses doing very different things. See the different postures, adapted for the job she is doing.













Sorry to hijack your thread Endurgirl, hopefully this sheds some light on the subject of "cutting equitation"

[endurgirl]

Pics aren't working for me, J.

And as I said, the trainer is in MY saddle and is nearly a foot taller than I am, and he never adjusted the stirrups.

But Tallpine, you know what's important to me? Not how good my trainer's equitation looks to you, but that he did his job, and Tex and I brought home a FIRST PLACE CHECK Saturday.

[Buckshot]

That looks like AWESOME fun...

After looking at cutter's photos I seriously had butterflies...and I don't get that when I look at most disciplines.

Congrats Tex & EG on the 1st place!

[endurgirl]

And this guy right here can't POSSIBLY know what he's doing....being 2008 Open Futurity Champion, and all.

[turn-n-burn5477]

WOW EG! In that last picture you posted, it looks like the horse lost half its legs from getting down so far!

Cutting has always fascinated me. I always thought that riding a good cutting horse would be so much fun! Tex is gorgeous as always, and congrats on the first place.

[Tallpine]

Thanks, cutter123

the trainer is in MY saddle and is nearly a foot taller than I am, and he never adjusted the stirrups

Which was what I asked.

[endurgirl]

Originally Posted by Tallpine

Does he always ride like that or does the saddle not fit him ???

Originally Posted by Tallpine

Well, I was just wondering... I spent several years learning to not ride that way

Originally Posted by Tallpine

Thanks, cutter123



Which was what I asked.

Not so much.........but anyway, now you know.

[tazassape]

Originally Posted by endurgirl

A bit rude, but anyway..........Actually he's in my saddle so it's probably a bit small for him front to back, but he rides with his stirrups short. Most cutters do He's tall, I'm 5'10 and he towers over me. He's gotta be 6'6 or 6'7.

And Chester..that dog nearly gets stepped on or kicked every time I'm there. She's determined, that's for sure

I didn't see the rudeness in tallpine's question. I thought the same thing when I saw the pictures. Does your trainer work in that pen at night?