[KristinJ]

Originally Posted by Jenje!

Trust me, I'm not at all lazy.

I use side reins on my three year old- yep, bad me! But I'll tell you why: it gives my horse a chance to stretch and warm up her back, neck and hindquarters before I climb on. I spend a lot of time sloooowly warming up my greenies. I start by lunging for a bit- not always in "boring circles", I do ground drive/long-line too and we do patterns as well as obstacles- without the side reins. Then I'll put one on (the inside rein) at a good, workable length- you won't see me cramming my horse's face in. I've actually seen people put side reins on so tightly that they have to bend the horse's head back/around to put them on, and that bothers me a lot. We go like that for a while, and then I'll switch directions, moving the side rein to the new inside. A little later I'll put on the other rein, but looser than the inside rein. Both sides that way.

I'm happy with my routine. It gives the horse a chance to warm up (and that's important to me), and for a greenie, to start developing the right kind of muscles early on. My horses never get to lollygag or half-toot it around... they are expected to work from back to front. And I promise you, they are not hard-mouthed in the slightest. But that could be because mine are worked in a nice, soft french link too- as opposed to whichever bit you disapprove of.

When you put the one siderein on the inside and then add the other, what is the workable length you choose? I am just confused I guess, trust me I am TRYING to understand. I really am. In my brain, I think Ok if you want to lunge the horse for some warm up time, let them loosen up and such, you wouldn't want anything to prevent them from stretching down, which is what sidereins would do right? They would stop the horse from stretching at a certain point? So in my mind I think, lunge or long line and then hop on. Then at the point in which you are on the horse, begin asking for engagement of the hind quarters.

So basically, you have your routine, but you could do it just as easily without the sidereins could you not? Probably, as you seem like you know what you are doing. So why even add them in? Isn't there a chance your horse will start to learn to ignore the pressure, as it seems to be constant with no give?

[Rhythm 'n Blues]

^^ Side reins DO have a give & the horse acutally has A very very large range of motion while they are on. More-so than draw reins or a running/stanging martingale.

When the side reins are properly adjusted, the horse can acutally put it's head right up in the air like a llama, or he can stretch down with his nose at his knees. Both of those positions cause the side reins to react differently on the bit and they do encourage the horse to come back to the correct area.

No they will NOT learn to ignore the pressure -- if they are correctly adjusted/used. That would be like the horse learning to ignore your light contact from your hands -- same concept, as when the horses' head goes up, or down the contact & feeling changes. The same is true for side reins.

[Rhythm 'n Blues]

Here are a few photos to show you what I'm talking about when I say "correct adjusted & used side reins":

Here are 2 photos of my last project horse "Wonder" Does he look like he's in any way shape or form being limited in his range of motion by the side reins?? Do you see any form of pressure at all?? Nope it's light.


Here is my old horse B -- while the photos are veru blurry (sorry for that) you can see again, horse is not limited in his range of motion & there's no pressure either. You again have a horse working nicely forward & who looks VERY happy


I also think all my photos show you that the horse has a very large range of motion with side reins in compaired to otehr training tools that could be used.

[KristinJ]

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

Here are a few photos to show you what I'm talking about when I say "correct adjusted & used side reins":

Here are 2 photos of my last project horse "Wonder" Does he look like he's in any way shape or form being limited in his range of motion by the side reins?? Do you see any form of pressure at all?? Nope it's light.


Here is my old horse B -- while the photos are veru blurry (sorry for that) you can see again, horse is not limited in his range of motion & there's no pressure either. You again have a horse working nicely forward & who looks VERY happy


I also think all my photos show you that the horse has a very large range of motion with side reins in compaired to otehr training tools that could be used.

Very cute horses. Thank you for the photos. I can clearly see the slack on the reins and see happy horses. If you were to take the sidereins off (after a warmup of letting the horse stretch and such w/o them), would the horse carry themselves this way? What would they do without the sidereins? To me is seems as though there is lots of slack, so why bother? I guess that's what I'm trying to say. OR is there slack because the horse respects the sidereins and understands what they are for, so they are coming into the bit?

Do they translate these sidereins into coming up into the bit when mounted? Even though the pressure is coming from a different directions (girth area vs above withers - as if you were holding reins).

I understand side reins give more motion compared to other training tools, but isn't that like saying it's the less of two evils? I guess my main thing is why bother at all when you can achieve it without them?

Perhaps a company should only be allowed to sell sidereins to people like you who use them correctly.

[firegurl979]

they have give, but also provide a steady contact which can be very helpful.

[Jenje!]

Originally Posted by KristinJ

When you put the one siderein on the inside and then add the other, what is the workable length you choose? I am just confused I guess, trust me I am TRYING to understand. I really am. In my brain, I think Ok if you want to lunge the horse for some warm up time, let them loosen up and such, you wouldn't want anything to prevent them from stretching down, which is what sidereins would do right? They would stop the horse from stretching at a certain point? So in my mind I think, lunge or long line and then hop on. Then at the point in which you are on the horse, begin asking for engagement of the hind quarters.

Side reins do not prevent a horse from stretching down into contact. No wonder you don't like side reins... you don't really understand the way they work. I'm not trying to be rude, but it's a lot easier to understand where you're coming from now. A person can work long and low in side reins. It's all in the technique. Some trainers like to see a horse's nose in the dirt, and I don't mind that if we're cooling out at the end of a ride... otherwise it's not really what I'm looking for.

So basically, you have your routine, but you could do it just as easily without the sidereins could you not? Probably, as you seem like you know what you are doing. So why even add them in? Isn't there a chance your horse will start to learn to ignore the pressure, as it seems to be constant with no give?

No, I could not warm my horse up with contact from the ground with one line without contact via the side reins. The side reins provide the steady contact. Just as (when long-lining) the two lines provide varying degrees of contact for the horse, depending on what you're doing. I do long-line, and I when I do I incorporate circles- the other way (IMO) to "lunge" with contact without a rider. Long-lining's a blast, love it, but again, it IS working with contact unless you're just letting your horse breeze around with no feel on his mouth at all... in which case you might as well be free-lunging.

Side reins are stretchy, some more than others... the ones I have right now are nylon with a doughnut... but I like the thin, webby ones better (they come with doughnuts too). There is no reason that side reins, used properly, should create resistance or a hard mouth in a horse. IMO, a good trainer does not dismiss training aids across the board. Yes, it's all well and good to do things completely naturally and never, ever use a tool. I've met some people who say that anything and everything beyond a saddle and bridle are crutches and should be thrown out... and I say that's a little near-sighted. If a person's going to claim to be perfectly pure, they need to throw out their saddle, bridle and bit as well... the Indians rode without them, after all.

If you're interested in learning about side reins, maybe you should contact a trainer who can show you in person. It's really easy to misuse them. I have seen self-professed "experts" bend a horse's head around so that they could clip the rein onto the bridle, they were adjusted that short... that does make me a little nuts. It's really contradictory to jam a horse up like that. They'll never be able to relax and get a good swing going through their backs. But people think they need to be that tight before the horse will notice and respond... they want instant yielding, and it comes at a cost. I prefer to use the reins a bit longer, and with an especially green horse, it does take a little longer for them to begin to seek the contact... but it's totally worth the wait. That's just my opinion as a mostly self-taught little Ammy, though.

Great posts R'n'B! I'm glad you have pictures to go along with your explanation... I can never get good ones (never have an extra set of hands).

[Huntseat]

ANY aid can be misused, it's silly to say that it is an evil, bad thing just because of ignorant people who don't know or don't care to know any better. That concept has only been discussed about 3 million times.

Lunging a horse without side reins is pretty much pointless as far as training and conditioning (from an english/dressage standpoint) if there is nothing in the front to collect the energy coming from the back (prompted by a whip, a rope, your body language, your voice, etc) Properly adjusted side reins will create light, soft contact when the horse stretches into the bridle.

Any piece of equipment adjusted too tight is a bad thing, we all know that.

[GotaDunQH]

Originally Posted by MysticRealm

I rarely lunge my horse as I prefer to ride but when I do I usually use a pair of side reins. The one thing that stood out to me in your post which I disagree with is where you said that there should be a slack in the side reins. Now maybe you just used the wrong word but I don't want there to be slack in the reins. This means my horse is not actually working into the side reins properly, instead he is hiding behind them. I want the to have a light consistent contact with them at all time just as I want them to have a light consistent feel of my hands while riding.

I love how you, as a western person, have one bad experience with an english horse/rider (love that you made sure we knew it was an A-circuit rider so that we knew this was what you considered should be a 'higher end' rider) and think that we all ride around ripping at our horse's faces.

Guess what. Just like with EVERY other discipline, you have good riders and you have bad riders. I have been at a show this week (Spruce Meadows, my horse was fantastic and we got all clear rounds even though he is a green baby) and yes you see a couple riders competing higher than they should be, or riding poorly on their horses but you also see many more GREAT riders riding wonderfully.

Don't be 'stupid' and judge the entire discipline due to a 'bad' experience. And maybe you just did not know how to ride this horse, didn't know how to 'push the right buttons' IF this horse was a school horse it WILL take more to get him to soften up and give due to him guarding himself more due to being used to beginner riders with bouncy hands and unbalanced seats (and if he had already been ridden in a frame for a bit that day/week he could very well have been tired from not being used to using those muscles). And you really can't pull all the hard in a half seat (atleast with out looking like you are pulling that hard and you said they sure didn't look like they were)

I totally see what you are saying because as a WP person, I hear the same thing about our discipline and gadgets. I use draw reins on my horse a couple times a month, and I know WHY I am using them and HOW to use them; much like the use of side reins for the other disciplines. I don't have a problem with ANY training aide, as long as it's used for the right purpose, with a concrete goal in mind to HELP that horse use it's body correctly, and how they are being used. What i don't like, is when people who have no clue use these gadgets merely because they saw someone else using them or everybody on my circuit uses them.

jennifer

[Rhythm 'n Blues]

Originally Posted by KristinJ

Very cute horses. Thank you for the photos. I can clearly see the slack on the reins and see happy horses.

Thank-you Glad you can see they are being used correctly & actually HELPING my horses learn about bit contact before a rider mounts up. BOTH of those horses were started that way, actually the photos of Wonder were taken on the same day as I sat on him & walked around for the very very 1st time!

Originally Posted by KristinJ

If you were to take the sidereins off (after a warmup of letting the horse stretch and such w/o them), would the horse carry themselves this way? What would they do without the sidereins? To me is seems as though there is lots of slack, so why bother? I guess that's what I'm trying to say. OR is there slack because the horse respects the sidereins and understands what they are for, so they are coming into the bit?

The bolded part is true. If I took those side reins off, while the horses may not look exactly like a llama, they will NOT have the same drive elastisity. Why? Because just as Huntseat explained, when you are creating energy (hind end impulsion) you need to be able to contain it somewho. If there's nothing "up front to capture the engery" then it's like heat a house with the door wide open It really doesn't work so well hehehehe

Originally Posted by KristinJ

Do they translate these sidereins into coming up into the bit when mounted? Even though the pressure is coming from a different directions (girth area vs above withers - as if you were holding reins).

Yes most certainly it translates. Soft contact is soft contact no matter where it's coming from. Here's a few photos of Wonder that were taken about 2months AFTER the above lunging photos. I did not have "create a head set" in any way shape or form. You don't even have to do anything to acheive this look other than pick up your reins and ensure the horse stays moving forward.


Oh and here are 2 of B -- these were taken about 4months after the ones of him lunging. As you can see, yes this horse is on the forehand more than the above -- conformation plays a roll in that, as this QH was litterally about 2" lower in the front end than the hind at this point in time. Still, none the less, you can see that he is incredibly round & ready to take up contact no matter where I "put him".

Originally Posted by KristinJ

I understand side reins give more motion compared to other training tools, but isn't that like saying it's the less of two evils? I guess my main thing is why bother at all when you can achieve it without them?

Like I've said above, you can't acheive the SAME THING without them. Yes the horse will go forward, and give to pressure, but you're not going to get the same elastisity & impulsion & drive from behind as with having something "up front" to capture & recycle the energy. Again, the alanogy of heating a house with the front door wide open....

Originally Posted by KristinJ

Perhaps a company should only be allowed to sell sidereins to people like you who use them correctly.

HA, like that is going to happen. Sadly you can't tell my looking at people if they know how to use certain equipment. And while some people may know how to use it, they may not know how to properly adjust it....seen that more than once

[IIIBarsV]

R&B: You illistrated exactly what I was talking about for "slack in sidereins"... those horses have some room to move, but are holding themselves beautifully without direct pressure on the reins. When I used sidereins in the past, that is the same adjustment I had on them.

The ones I was complaining about with the hard-mouthed horse who killed my shoulders were done up waaaaaay tighter than that- and are commonly done up too tightly if that is the comparison we use.