[KristinJ]

Originally Posted by Jenje!

Er... your problem with side reins seems to revolve around the MISUSE of side reins... They are perfectly useful in the right hands. I use them myself (on my western horse, even! ).

But why do you need them? Can you not just get on and do the same exact thing? To me it just comes across as lazyness of the rider/trainer. I would much rather be on my horse or long line them to be able to connect with the horse and feel them out. Sticking them on sidereins and having them go in circles, doesn't seem rewarding to the horse at all. Yes I understand if you have them set a good length, the horse will 'find' the bit and stay there, but is that it? Isn't riding about constantly signaling your horse and keeping communication open? Sidereins just don't seem to offer that to me. Personal choice - you will never see a set around my barn.

And you are right I think almost ANY time i have seen someone use sidereins they were misusing them.

[IIIBarsV]

Not my intention to attack ALL english riders, my bad. I made the point of "A-circuit rider" because a) they *were* A-circuit riders, and successful ones at that, b) one would expect more knowledge and/or skill of hand out of a higher-level rider than you would out of someone who is a beginner, not competing at that level, or uncoached. I realize these are only two out of a much larger population, but I've had enough discussions and watched others ride to get the general jist of it.

But there are more than enough who follow the school of thought that it takes more than butterfly-touch to have "contact" with a horse's mouth- it is widespread enough that a lot of people in other disciplines consider most english riders "heavy handed". I actually would not have even thought that the two riders who rode the horse before me were heavy-handed- they looked fantastic. Then I got on the horse, and went "Holy cow, 30 lb weights".

Let me clarify "slack".... I mean, when a horse goes into a nice relaxed frame of their own choice, they are able to hold this comfortably without the sidereins applying too much pressure to "hold" them in this position. The sidereins should encourage, but not pull, the horse to give to the bit pressure and release this pressure when they are "on the bit"- effectively allowing the horse to use their own power, instead of allowing them to lean on the bit. This might be a difficult concept if the rider is trying to get the horse to carry themselves in a high, tight "dressagey" frame.

So, for this purpose "slack" means "no pressure", but not necessarily a noticeably dangling or obviously loose pair of reins.

My questions near the end...

Is this common? Do they think it is *normal* for a horse to be THAT hard-mouthed?

... were not sarcastic (I know it sounded like it, but I am dead-serious). I've had a relatively small sampling since I show AQHA (where the complaint is often about draped-reins in english classes, lol), but I know lots of you guys here have been showing USEF-and-similar for years, so you'd be able to answer the questions- especially if you've been riding many horses as opposed to one or two of your own.

I agree that side reins can cause more harm than good when used incorrectly. However, I don't think any one discipline corners the market in poor side rein use.

This is VERY true! In western, they will definitely go for the "tiedown" situation, and very often will take the split reins between the horse's legs and tie them over the saddle- with a shank bit on, and lunge. Many will do it so tightly that the horse cannot lift their head above level without breaking the bridle. This is a common practice in western performance training with many people and I Do NOT Agree With It. This form can do all the bad things that sidereins can do when misused. And I've yet to see any real benefits from it, unlike sidereins that when used correctly, are beneficial to the horse.

In the end... (or to summarize).... I rarely use any sort of gadget, and absolutely prefer not to. I have used sidereins and draw reins in the past, but in the last four years or so, I've come across horses who could not (for whatever reason) be ridden/lunged even for brief training periods, in those items. I had to come up with other ideas, and that ultimately led me to just make better effective use of my leg, seat, and hand aides.

So from both sides of the discipline fence (Yes, I ride predominantly western nowadays, but my background is in BHS english and I school classical dressage 24/7), I would much rather not see *any* "training tool gadgets" used... and to summarize the original post... if you're going to use them, make darn good sure they're being used correctly!

[IIIBarsV]

Example #2 in OP- benefit of "doing it yourself" as KristinJ is pointing out... If your green or young horse feels "entrapped" by your hands, you can at least drop those reins quick and prevent a blow up. If you are lunging, there is no way for you to get those sidereins off fast enough if your horse starts flying backwards. This would be my one major safety concern about sidereins- they don't break easy in an extreme situation such as that.

[KristinJ]

Originally Posted by IIIBarsV

Example #2 in OP- benefit of "doing it yourself" as KristinJ is pointing out... If your green or young horse feels "entrapped" by your hands, you can at least drop those reins quick and prevent a blow up. If you are lunging, there is no way for you to get those sidereins off fast enough if your horse starts flying backwards. This would be my one major safety concern about sidereins- they don't break easy in an extreme situation such as that.

I always usually though well if the horse is well schooled and knows how to do it then sidereins are probably OK, but then why bother if the horse was trained well and knows?

So many people do it with young horses to 'teach' them but I just think it is terrible. I had a horse come to me, EXTREMELY hard mouth. Combination of siderein use and heavy handed rider. The horse had the HARDEST MOUTH i have ever dealt with. So the owner would say 'pick a harsher bit'. Thank goodness the horse was 2 hours away from him and at my house. I had to retrain him and put him in a halter, and rode in that. Then a nice easy french link. Never once sidereins (not that I had any lol). He left my house learning how to properly carry himself, impulsion from behind therefore CREATING a beautiful headset. He was young (6) so did need convincing to use himself, lots of circles and transitions, but he understood it.

He went back to his owner, his owner not wanting to do that work (lots of trotting/cicles/transitions) put on the sidereins and the horse went to sh!t again ...

[Jenje!]

Trust me, I'm not at all lazy.

I use side reins on my three year old- yep, bad me! But I'll tell you why: it gives my horse a chance to stretch and warm up her back, neck and hindquarters before I climb on. I spend a lot of time sloooowly warming up my greenies. I start by lunging for a bit- not always in "boring circles", I do ground drive/long-line too and we do patterns as well as obstacles- without the side reins. Then I'll put one on (the inside rein) at a good, workable length- you won't see me cramming my horse's face in. I've actually seen people put side reins on so tightly that they have to bend the horse's head back/around to put them on, and that bothers me a lot. We go like that for a while, and then I'll switch directions, moving the side rein to the new inside. A little later I'll put on the other rein, but looser than the inside rein. Both sides that way.

I'm happy with my routine. It gives the horse a chance to warm up (and that's important to me), and for a greenie, to start developing the right kind of muscles early on. My horses never get to lollygag or half-toot it around... they are expected to work from back to front. And I promise you, they are not hard-mouthed in the slightest. But that could be because mine are worked in a nice, soft french link too- as opposed to whichever bit you disapprove of.

[Bella]

I think a lot of people tend to forget that lunging isn't just about making your horse run around in circles. If its not done correctly you nor your horse are going to get anything about it.

One of the elements of 'correctness' happens to be a proper frame. This is where side reins can come in handy. They aren't there to teach, or cover up a problem (if used correctly). They are just a reinforcement.. they are your hands when your hands cannot be there.

They are a very handy tool, when used correctly.

-Bella

[Rhythm 'n Blues]

I train all my horses in side reins. It's a good intro to activating the bit.

I am 100% NOT comfortable ground driving, it totally baffles me & I have no one around me to show me how it's done. Because of that it's NOT something I'm willing to learn trial & erroring. I tried it once & didn't even make 1/2 way around the ring before I concluded that I was doing it all wrong & needed help to do it again.

I have been shown how to use side reins correctly, and that is what I'm confy with. I use them all the time when I'm starting horses for scratch. So in this case, I litterally CAN'T safely get up on their backs & do from there. So yes side-reins when used correctly, just as with any other train tool, can be beneficial.

Please, no one should be blind about how an item could help in any situation, so don't bash others who you don't know. You have no clue if they use them correctly or not. Don't doom something "useless" or "bad" jsut because you've seen people mis-use the item -- that in & of it's self shows that you are not an open-minded person!

[BNA526]

I just have to add my two cents.

I completely agree that side-reins can be an extremely useful tool in training, when used correctly. However, there are lots of people out there that don't know how to use them correctly, or just assume they know.

I always use them with youngsters and greenies as a tool to assist their learning, as it makes the riding portion of their training, the suppling portion, a heck of a lot easier on my muscles.

However, I have to add, that I absolutely positively HATE when I see people physically riding their horse while they still have them strapped in side-reins.
It is unsafe, completely dangerous, and very stupid. There are other devices such as draw reins and even neck stretchers (Although I'm not a fan of neck stretchers) that can be a lot safer. My favorite to use undersaddle are draw reins, if you STILL need that extra bit of emphasis on the relaxation to the bit. However, of course, one should only use draw reins if they know how to use them properly.

With all of that said, I only use side-reins or draw reins when needed. I use them until I get the result I was looking for, and then discontinue use of them. I don't want a horse relying on those, I want them relying on my aids solely. I don't believe these tools for training should be relyed on.

[Mozarts_Girl]

When training I HATE it when people crank up those side reins and make it so severe the horse's mouth is gaping and there are big wrinkles where his mandible connects to his neck. Yes, I've actually seen this! his poor face was waayyy behind the vertical. comments from the 'trainer': "it teaches him to keep his head nice and tightly tucked in; not hanging everywhere"
It does NOT! it teaches him early on to be stiff and scared of rein contact, then gives him a really hard mouth! I rode this poor gelding when he was six, and his mouth was SOOO hard he didn't respond to any contact, and they had the poor boy in some big fat fre.akin corkscrew pelham!
compare this to how I trained my boy; early on he was just being lunged with a roller, then a saddle with a lunging cavesson. once he was used to being bitted (a happy-mouth eggbutt snaffle) I lunged him with the roller and bridle (with a cavesson over it), then a saddle and bridle, and lastly connected VERY softly, a pair of all elastic side reins. they had not slack in them, but they were very soft elastic. there was very little pressure on the bit. every few days I increased the pressure just the TINIEST bit until he began responding by tucking his nose in, until he was RIGHT on the vertical with almost no pressure. The big test: I lunged him with slack in the side reins and he still went on the vertical! The result is the most easy-mouthed featherlight Arab, who with just barely a wiggle on the reins, readily and joyfully rounds out beautifully!
moral: side reins are a GREAT asset if you know how to use them

[Mozarts_Girl]

Originally Posted by BNA526

I just have to add my two cents.

However, I have to add, that I absolutely positively HATE when I see people physically riding their horse while they still have them strapped in side-reins.
It is unsafe, completely dangerous, and very stupid. There are other devices such as draw reins and even neck stretchers (Although I'm not a fan of neck stretchers) that can be a lot safer. My favorite to use undersaddle are draw reins, if you STILL need that extra bit of emphasis on the relaxation to the bit. However, of course, one should only use draw reins if they know how to use them properly.

sooooo true!