Shoeing vs Barefoot

[RickB.]

What I don't understand is using the fact that your shoeing job being bad must be the only reason your horse did better barefoot. I just don't think that necessarily holds true.

It absolutely holds true. No horse that needs shoes to do its best ever did better barefoot. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it.

As I see it. If getting a good shoeing job is such a rare thing and so many horses do better barefoot because of it ....then barefoot is better.

Horses may or may not do better barefoot but horses that need shoes to do their best never do better barefoot.

Why pay someone who might or might not screw up your horses feet?

I realize that you are asking about retaining the services of a farrier here, but the same question applies to hoof care providers who only trim. And, proportionally, I'd hazard a guess that there are as many bad trimmers as there are bad farriers. The converse also being true.

[tabinmaine]

Cudos to you Rick B for discussing this subject over and over and over and over for 6 years now..... lol

Does it feel like "groundhog day" to you at all ???

[IIIBarsV]

OK, I've been browsing back around Page 20-23, and I just HAVE to address Jennifer's post because I'm procrastinating on my homework...

There is a reason speed horses run with shoes and it has to do with their jobs.

In my experience, it has to do with how much starch they are consuming; cruddy "flat" trims that would otherwise allow them to run just fine; and "traditional and/or ignorant thoughts" related to "oh no, my horse is sore, let's shoe him!" without asking "Why is my horse sore now, when he was sound before?", or "My horse is in training, he needs shoes because some idiot trainer who believes twisted wire snaffles and sliding gags are the way to go said so..." People often don't know jack about hooves, and usually know even less about nutrition/muscle function/feeding to keep a horse sound and performing long-term.

Can you show me top race horses or barrel racers running barefoot?

I just did... and here are a few more (of my friends):

Kate & Toby in the Maritimes: 2x 14-18 Youth Barrel Barrel Racing and Pole Champion
2010 Open Res Barrel Racing Champion
2010 Open Res Pole Bending Champion

Fotheringham Family: We have some horses that can run barefoot! We always give there feet a try before we go to putting shoes on them! But some of them just need shoes on especially when you are running in all different kind of pens and all over the place!
(The husband is a Natural Balance farrier as well as NB trimmer). Diet might play a factor in some of the ones who need shoes, they have beautiful grass pastures on the farm. But they DO travel all over the States and Eastern Canada, and it can be hard to condition hooves properly for different climates when you live in Southern Ontario.

Tasha: I use to exercise ride thoroughbreds for some people who run them barefoot and they win- does that count? :P (Yes Tasha. LOL)

Shannon & Easy Dash Rock: The last season I ran my Easy Dash Rock mare she was barefoot and we did very well. I actually didn't find any difference in her running. No problems. We placed in the 1D at Horse-A-Rama in barrels, poles and dash. Ran at ...Spencerville and Richmond too and placed. Just kept her off gravel when trail riding and excericing. As well kept her on a good diet that included Leaps and Bounds. Typically by the end of any other season when she was shod, her hooves were a mess and I would have to pull the shoes and run her anyways. So I didn't even bother that year. It was much nicer for her hooves.


It should be noted that there are some serious rumours and confirmed cases with witnesses of "top end" barrel riders drugging and denerving their horses, including NBHA World 1D's, Champions and Congress Top Ten/Champions... I am fully aware that it is a problem with SOME people in the Ontario Circuit and anyone who reads better not let me catch them needling a horse before a run, or you WILL be getting the SPCA called on you.

So I don't put much stock in some of the "Top Racers" who are winning, because some of them are willing to do anything--- even illegal stuff--- to win. Shoes probably play less of a part in some of these cases than the cocaine and/or epinephrine does. >=(

Don't you think if could run barefoot and be even faster they would?

They could, but I bet most of them would either say "My horse is sore without shoes in the summer" or "My horse slips without shoes." A couple might give the "different grounds and my horse doesn't get conditioned on them" excuse, which is legitimate, to a point. You can always find ways to prepare, and I think if you are going to run a horse barefoot, it's your responsibility to prepare the horse for different grounds/footings outside the arena as best as possible.

I start working my bunch on the small sandy gravel on the shoulder of the road right in the spring when it's still springy and soft, and make sure to do that with walking or trotting every day (or thereabouts) as part of warm-up/cool-down. I'll use pine tar if the weather's been wet to prevent saturation/softening, or leave a extra wall than usual. The toughest footing I've seen is Congress, where you've got gravel, pavement, concrete, and hard-packed dirt warm-up pens, followed by Ancaster, where the main warm-up pen is stone dust that sands the hooves down pretty quick (leave extra wall and don't trim right before that show!), as well as had fist-sized chunks of gravel for about 15 ft in front of the arena entrance.

It can be a bit of a hassle, especially if you're rehabbing a horse. I had to be careful with Turbo in his first two years because his frogs couldn't handle very rough ground. We didn't go trotting on gravel and I didn't run him if the ground was full of rocks (I think even shod people are twits for running on ground full of big rocks unless they have pads on... do you WANT a broken coffin bone? Shoes don't protect the sole from big rocks). Nowadays, Turbo can handle rough ground even at a canter. His hooves have improved that much, but we were coming from "way, way damaged." Had I wanted to run him on "everything" when his feet were still recovering in 2008-2009, I would have put rims with pads on. Why would I risk a sole bruise to a "less than perfect" hoof? (Point: You have to be SMART about shoeing. Know exactly WHY you're shoeing, WHAT you're shoeing with, and HOW the hoof is going to function.)

So, ask all the barrel racers and race horse trainers to pull their horses shoes, and compete in the same amount of events for a year that they normally do, and see what happens at the end of the year.

Most of them would be lame. Some would stay the same level, and some would excel, but probably 60% wouldn't be able to even trot.

Now, if you say all trainers/riders should:

1) Change to a zero-starch diet for the fall/winter, and go on a low-starch diet for the summer/training season. Properly balance dietary minerals by using NRC requirements or "Ration X" software a la Corlena.

2) Pull shoes at end of cycle with my prescribed trim that leaves more hoofwall on the bottom of the foot. Properly balance the foot if needed.

3) Spend time treating frogs for thrush if needed.

4) Slowly use softer but tough ground (such as stone dust, sandy small gravel, coarse sand) for daily walk/trot to condition hooves.

5) Use Durasole pre-emptively for thin/flat soled horses.

6) Cease "shooting up" horses.

7) Use GameReady everyday for a month, followed by a few times a week or as part of cool-down routine

8) Feed a prebiotic/Horse Crack Prebiotic a la Corlena/AllTech Lifesource and/or treat for ulcers as per your vet's instructions

9) Take laminitis-preventing measures such as: limiting grazing time, supplementing with more hay, dry-lotting in "sore horse" cases, or feeding Equishure pre-emptively.

10) Make sure horse is getting at least 6-12 hours per day of turnout. Space hay piles out to encourage walking.

.... Then I estimate that we would see MOST horses either winning the same as usual, showing slight improvement, or improving greatly.

A smaller percentage (probably 30%) wouldn't be able to run on hard footing in their first year but would be fine in their second year.

About 10% wouldn't be able to run at all due to:
- the severity of the damage
- pre-existing bone-related problems (ie: navicular)
- genetics.

That 10% would need at least front shoes (individual basis), or in the case of those with severely damaged hooves, 2-3 years of rehab with limited competition/riding on certain footings before they are "100% sound on everything."

As you can see from my list, most of the problem isn't JUST the hooves, but the diet, training practices and lifestyle.

I also estimate that if everybody tried out my list of 10, at the end of the year some would choose to stay barefoot, some would go back to shoes, and most would say "It Depends." lol

[RickB.]

I do not think a proper shoeing job would be any harm either. Just that the shoeing I got did not address the problem my horse had. Would a proper job have done better...I may never know.

a true pity......

And if there is no improvement then their is no point in my having shoes put on my horse.

Conversely, if the barefoot trim is inadequate(and the use of boots, even part time suggests it is), then what is the point in leaving the horse barefoot>

I wish I could find one of those well informed farriers who study the function of the horses foot and who understand the newer science. So far I am not impressed with the ones in my area.

And your qualifications to stand in judgement of the work of either farriers or trimmers are? For starters, what courses have you attended, how many horses have you trimmed and/or shod, etc?

I would like a good farrier I could work with on either a better barefoot trim or shoes that actually helped.

There still remains no real proof that you haven't found one.....

[IIIBarsV]

Though I have never before asked her, I'm curious to know if her barefoot winning times are better than when her horse was shod and winning and how much, on average, what the difference in the winning times are and what the weight of the shoes averaged.

I think I just found another way to procrastinate! Thanks Rick.

I'll do up a list of times on Sugar Bear and see if I can find Turbo's old ones.

I'll get Krystal on the ball and get some times from Roxy, too.

As for match race:

Leslie and Zip, versus Betsy and Sugar Bear. They are well matched, horses are about the same size and weight. Betsy and Leslie have similar riding histories and backgrounds. Leslie is shorter and lighter though... about 5'5 and 115-120lbs, while Betsy is 5'8 and 145-150 lbs. These two horses have run against each other since 2006 and Zip's got 2 yrs on Sugar Bear.

Zip has been shod and doesn't have any major imbalances. Worst I've seen is not the best breakover, but nothing truly excessive.

In 2008, Leslie beat Betsy by a couple tenths of a second at 3 shows that I recall, when Sugar Bear was either ripping shoes off, tripping, or slipping out. It was a real toss-up as to who would win Poles (and then Krystal came in and whipped them both a couple times with Roxy, and our friend Joanne caught her at the Black Gold show).
That was with several different types of shoeing style, as well as everything from plain flat steel, aluminum, aluminum wedges/banana, steel rims...

When Sugar started running barefoot, there was no more "toss up". He blew past everybody and clean-sweeped other games (moved up a few placings in Barrels). This year, even Leslie wants to try going barefoot with Zip and her two young horses. I'm super-interested to see if a) she follows through, b) learns to trim and c) if Zips times are going to get faster or more consistant. He is very consistant already and has set some records himself.

[RickB.]

Cudos to you Rick B for discussing this subject over and over and over and over for 6 years now..... lol

Its a dirty job but somebody has to do it.

Does it feel like "groundhog day" to you at all ???

Yeah, every time this drama comes up with a new cast of characters "its like deja-vu all over again"(quote courtesy of Yogi Berra)

[RickB.]

Tasha: I use to exercise ride thoroughbreds for some people who run them barefoot and they win- does that count?

Where are they racing? I ask because unless things have recently changed, it is illegal to race barefoot on any paramutual track in the USA.

Shannon & Easy Dash Rock: Just kept her off gravel when trail riding and excericing.

Why?

It should be noted that there are some serious rumours and confirmed cases with witnesses of "top end" barrel riders drugging and denerving their horses, including NBHA World 1D's, Champions and Congress Top Ten/Champions... I am fully aware that it is a problem with SOME people in the Ontario Circuit ....

That's because its about money, glory and braggin' rights, not, the horse.

and I think if you are going to run a horse barefoot, it's your responsibility to prepare the horse for different grounds/footings outside the arena as best as possible.

And if that is not enough?

Most of them would be lame. Some would stay the same level, and some would excel, but probably 60% wouldn't be able to even trot.

Welcome to my world. My job is to get them and keep them training and racing and if I can't/don't do that, guaranteed someone else will be.

.... Then I estimate that we would see MOST horses either winning the same as usual, showing slight improvement, or improving greatly.

A smaller percentage (probably 30%) wouldn't be able to run on hard footing in their first year but would be fine in their second year.

Do you use Tarot Cards, a Crystal Ball, Persimmon Seeds or what to make such a prognostication?

I also estimate that if everybody tried out my list of 10, at the end of the year some would choose to stay barefoot, some would go back to shoes, and most would say "It Depends." lol

Aha! So you invoke Rick's First Law of Equidom. A wise move, Grasshopper.

[RickB.]

Farnorth in blue

Originally Posted by RickB.
What's a 'wild horse or barefoot trim'? Is it the same both east and west of the Mississippi river?


different people call it different things, if you don't know what it means google it. I have only read about them myself.

What are some of the other things people call it" I know what it means, but apparently, you don't. So you've never even seen what it/they are have no experience with it/them, but still feel qualified to opine on the subject.

Out of curiosity ....do you trim a horse that is going barefoot the same as you trim a horse you are going to shoe? If so what do you call the difference? If you don't do it differently why not?

No. A barefoot trim vs a trim for accepting shoes. Not germane as I trim the feet according to their individual need and use.
I did buy some durasole, didn't use it yet, I didn't find out about it until riding season was basically over.

The use of Durasole is not season dependent.

I said he has good hard hooves, that do not easily chip or crack. He has not needed any corrective shoeing to move correctly....

Not germane because shoeing is not necessarily corrective. More often than not it is simply, correct. You do understand the difference don't you?

Do you prescribe to the idea that he should simply be ridden on gravel or hard surfaces more often and that will toughen the soles of the feet?

See, Rick's First Law

I hope to use the durasole too but I can't be out there every day at the boarding barn and I don't know if it will be effective if only applied 3 times a week.

Excuses, excuses, excuses... How will you know unless you first read the instructions or failing that, just try?

What has led you to that conclusion?

Um, common sense.

Unfortunately, there is nothing common about common sense......

How do you know that the only reason someone's horse does barefoot MUST mean they had a bad shoeing job?

Reading comp.101: I don't and never said it did.

Are you absolutely sure there are no horses that simply do better barefoot?

Reading Comp102: No, and I never said I was. I said that any horse that needs shoes to perform its best never did/does better barefoot.

yes, that is sad, so why would I pay someone to do a bad job?

Same question applies whether barefoot or shod.

Absolutely. Unless of course the horse would do even better correctly shod.

duh. But what do you mean by correctly?

See Rick's First Law.

Why wouldn't you just find someone who could do the job correctly?

As I explained...because for some of us a good farrier isn't available in our area. I used 2 of the local 3 and the one I didn't use I observed doing what I assumed was a bad job on a horse. It can't be a good thing when a farrier puts down a horses front foot, stands back to take a look and says " S h i t !" and then proceeds to trim the horse so short before shoeing her that the horse is sore for days.

See, Rick's First Law.

If a $100 pair of easyboots or using the durasole solves the only problem I have why would I keep hunting for a farrier and spending money on something I may not need.

I don't know. Why would you? Other than the fact that farriers are or should be trained, skilled and knowledgeable enough to trim a horse to go/remain barefoot.

What do you consider a 'bad' job and what qualifies you to make that determination?

A bad job is a job that is not good.

So you really don't know

I didn't make that determination.

Well, who did?

I said I didn't want to pay for what MIGHT be a bad job.

Ever consider that it might also be a good job?

I got the idea from you saying that people were getting bad shoeing jobs and that was the reason that their horses were doing better when barefoot.

<sigh> I suppose I should have included that when people get good shoeing jobs there is not necessarily a reason to take the horse barefoot and in that instance, the horse may well do better shod than barefoot but in no event should it do worse when shod.

According to you, what is 'the correct way'?

The correct way is the correct way. Whatever is the best way for the particular horse to be shod. This is something the farrier should know.

I see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel

If as you said, so many farriers are doing bad jobs of shoeing...should they not learn the correct way whatever that is?
[color] Indeed. Now, define for us, what makes a job correct[/color]

you've been going on and on about how many of us must have gotten incorrect shoeing...don't you know?

There are a lot of things I don't know. To what/which are you referring?

And if/when it doesn't, what then?

Why would it not work? The hundreds of people saying they work great for just such a reason as I want to use them for are all lying?

The plural of anecdote is not, data, but that's a Reading Comp 400 level concept.

One hour three times a week I need something to protect the horses soles from rocks. Do I really need a horse shod all summer just for that?

See: Rick's First Law

Why is that another matter. Often, IMNTBCHO, its the heart of the matter.

It may be the heart of the matter but it is not the subject of this thread...It's another matter because the OP didn't ask about our opinion about breeding horses with good feet. She asked for opinions on barefoot vs shod and what ALL of us thought about it.

I didn't bring the subject up, I simply responded to a question asked.

[Farnorth]

It absolutely holds true. No horse that needs shoes to do its best ever did better barefoot. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it.

I never said a horse that needs shoes would do better barefoot. I said that not every horse that does better barefoot is only because it had a bad shoeing job. Some horses do great barefoot. I owned one, never had a shoe on, never had cracks or big chips, never went lame, rode anywhere even on rocks and asphalt.

Horses may or may not do better barefoot but horses that need shoes to do their best never do better barefoot.

Obviously.

I have never said all horses need to be barefoot. But I would go barefoot with any horse that did fine without shoes and who did not need them for any other reason.

I realize that you are asking about retaining the services of a farrier here, but the same question applies to hoof care providers who only trim. And, proportionally, I'd hazard a guess that there are as many bad trimmers as there are bad farriers. The converse also being true.

I have never met a hoof care provider who trims only.

Perhaps the next time my horse get trimmed I should post pictures and ask if it was a good job or not. I would really like to know if I am just getting bad farrier work.

f a r n o r t h

[HorseShowDiva]

My show mare is shod on all 4 durring show season and barefoot in the off season. I do notice a difference in her performances with and without shoes.