[Rummymuffin]

Originally Posted by Roleysnewmom

The same happens with my horse. We're working on it, because I know it's not desirable, but I wonder really how much pain it could be putting him in if he chooses to do so on his own? We go no where near rolkur, but I could understand (I'm gonna get killed for this I know) people using it as a training method. Obviously a training method is abuse when done incorrectly over overused, as with any one of the gadgets that modern day riders are using. I can't say I would ever use it based on the backlash, but really as some of you said, I'd like to know why these riders are using it. There could be completely logistic thinking behind it. I don't know the horse. I dont know the rider. I dont know how either was trained. Only then would I freely judge them. Just my honest opinion.

As I said in an earlier post; it is considered "effective" for extremely talented, explosive horses that have become the top performers in the upper levels of dressage. Rollkur is a means of control and getting "into" a horse that might be difficult to train in conventional means.

[red00jeep]

Originally Posted by Rummymuffin

As I said in an earlier post; it is considered "effective" for extremely talented, explosive horses that have become the top performers in the upper levels of dressage. Rollkur is a means of control and getting "into" a horse that might be difficult to train in conventional means.

Hm, maybe I'm not fully understanding, but to me, the idea of forced submission is counter-intuitive to what dressage actually is in principle....?

[Rummymuffin]

Originally Posted by red00jeep

Hm, maybe I'm not fully understanding, but to me, the idea of forced submission is counter-intuitive to what dressage actually is in principle....?

Hence the battle of "classical" vs. "modern" dressage.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by KristinJ

Of course, I doubt I will ever get into the stage of a double bridle, but who knows. It seems as though SOME of the rollkur people seem to really CRANK 'em shut ... =/

There are Hunter bridles with crank nosebands too

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by Roleysnewmom

We go no where near rolkur, but I could understand (I'm gonna get killed for this I know) people using it as a training method.

Don't confused Rollkur-proper with "riding deep". Big difference, and the latter can be very, very useful for a horse who tends to hold himself, or keep some tension.

[KristinJ]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

There are Hunter bridles with crank nosebands too

Yes I remember this one woman who I used to really look up to (what did i know, i was young and naiive!) But I got a new bridle for my horse and she was looking at it and stated that she really like the noseband (it was a regular one) but the buckle had a roller on it, so when you put the other end it rolled through easier. But she mentioned she really 'loved the ones with rollers, because it was so much easier to get them nice and tight!!'

I took the noseband off my english bridle when I ride my old man .. lol No need for it, he is a school master hehe.

[Lyre]

Originally Posted by Rummymuffin

As I said in an earlier post; it is considered "effective" for extremely talented, explosive horses that have become the top performers in the upper levels of dressage. Rollkur is a means of control and getting "into" a horse that might be difficult to train in conventional means.

Personally I think that is just an excuse. Force, in my opinion, is never really an option. I don't care how "difficult" the horse is. So, 1% of us could get on those horses and actually ride them. So props to these dressage riders for being as highly skilled and talented as they are, that part is obvious. But in that respect, surely they can work with their so called "difficult" horses in ways that aren't as almost... barbaric... as rollkur. I don't get why they think they need to use this technique. It's like going back to how horses used to be broken in - "breaking" their resistance through force, instead of trust and communication and training and skill from rider/trainer.

So obviously I have "judged" these riders from an outsider's view of rollkur and training horses. I have never ridden grand prix dressage and I have never trained my own horse. But as I have said if any of these people justified any benefits that aren't about controlling the horse and turning them into little robots and making them do whatever the rider wants 100% of the time, or excuses about getting them to use their back better (and one of the first things I learned while riding was that this is most easily and efficiently achieved from the HIND END not the forehand) and if they managed to debunk the apparent harm that it can cause and the rough way that they are ridden in order to get them INTO rollkur frames in the first place (which, lets admit it, is basically sawing the mouth. Gentler than some "western" riders maybe, but by no means gentle, and by no means giving the horse the option to do it willingly), then I might shift my opinion a little. And I'd love to see a horse ridden rollkur in a snaffle

Really, I think it is a vicious cycle. Modern high level dressage seems to have become focused on doing what it takes to win. And what wins is decided by the judges. And so the riders try to do what the judges want. And the judges change the rules to fit the riders. So basically it's almost not dressage at all anymore.

Just one more thing. I don't think that rollkur should be compared to any kind of human stretching. Equine and human anatomy are obviously completely different and I think you need to think of it in terms of the horse. Yes horses and people can both become extremely fit and flexible with training, but if you want to think of it that way, I think horses just being able to be elite athletes as well as humans can be is about as far as the similarities go.

And photos being a moment in time? Yes, they are. But that moment still happened.

So yeah... some of my musings are probably ignorant and I'll admit that x] These are just the impressions that I get. And I enjoy discussing things hehe. I'm not set in stone. I'll just wait for something to come along to convince me otherwise xD I wish I could understand what Edward Gal was saying in that video. But for me seeing how freely his hind end reaches and how swinging his stride is in that walk at the end of the video, compared to the rest... that sums it up really XD

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by Rummymuffin

You said it yourself in another post on this thread; a photo is a moment in time. Do not assume that I support rollkur; I have just seen it in less extreme examples and I have watched videos of top riders performing it. They do not tug constantly on the reins; they pull the horse down, let go. Horse goes up, flex the horse down again. By the time the horse reaches the upper levels, they just stay down there.

You can't tell me the horse in this video - as in, not just a moment in time - is staying where he is of his own volition. And if by some remote chance he is, you couldn't ever convince me it's a willing position, rather he knows what will happen if he doesn't stay there.

Not ever going to buy that a horse will stay there 100% willingly out of the kindness of his heart.
http://www.youtube.com/user/eponatv#p/u/1/8hIXGiV4N4k

If you saw a horse in this position due to draw reins, would you really tell me the horse was staying there out of sheer joy, even if the DRs had some slack on them?

[prairiegirl]

Hmm, a friend has a Quarter Horse cross gelding who carries his head naturally behind the vertical when he's being ridden. Not in the pasture. He's a western horse who looks so tightly wound-up that it looks, quite frankly, ridiculous. I wonder if some yahoo did some crazy training with him? Or is there a reason a horse might carry his head like that? I personally think he looks uncomfortable--teeth or back issues maybe...but his owner says that he looks 'proud' like that and she likes it. I don't know.

[JBandRio]

Yes, horses can be trained - purposefully or inadvertently - to carry themselves BTV at all times when ridden.

S.crew him up enough and he'll do it in the pasture too

The fact that his owner says he looks "proud" tells me it was purposefully done by cranking his face in, merely to obtain a look without having a clue about the mechanics behind it. Sadly, that happens a LOT