[leoparddraft]

Originally Posted by Huntseat

Physics and pain.

My horses let me know when they're not chill with a relationship.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by imjustjoking22

JB would you agree that this horse is btv but working through his back- and so, fairly correct? (as a warm-up frame)

Obviously, one moment in time doesn't tell the whole picture, all the time, but yes, I would say this is a horse who is btv only in terms of his position, not in terms of coming behind the bit. He's on his forehand a little, and you can see how if he were to just rotate his entire position to the right a little - sit a little behind, elevate a little in front - then he wouldn't appear much btv. I get the strong impression he's in a seeking mode here

this is a higher frame and a bit more "pulled in" but to me also does not look uncomfortable to the horse (and while some riders with leverage bits may be able to crank their horse's heads in, I can personally attest to the fact that I do not have that type of strength with a fat snaffle )

In this one I'd like to have seen him vertical or in front, because I don't get the impression he's seeking much here. This picture makes him look tight across his back - quite different from the first picture. Uncomfy? Nope, certainly doesn't look that way

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by leoparddraft

My horses let me know when they're not chill with a relationship.

Sure, and *you* will take a look at what's going on to see if you are trying to force an issue that the horse isn't ready for, mentally or physically, or if you are trying to force an issue that isn't correct riding. Not everyone does that - some just say "s.uck it up horse, I said so" and go on - they go on with bigger bits or spurs if they have to, use a tie-down or draw reins to control the head, etc. Those are all methods of force, and yes, if you have draw reins set snug enough, you absolutely can force a horse's head to his chest.

[imjustjoking22]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Obviously, one moment in time doesn't tell the whole picture, all the time, but yes, I would say this is a horse who is btv only in terms of his position, not in terms of coming behind the bit. He's on his forehand a little, and you can see how if he were to just rotate his entire position to the right a little - sit a little behind, elevate a little in front - then he wouldn't appear much btv. I get the strong impression he's in a seeking mode here

In this one I'd like to have seen him vertical or in front, because I don't get the impression he's seeking much here. This picture makes him look tight across his back - quite different from the first picture. Uncomfy? Nope, certainly doesn't look that way

Thanks for the response! I was curious to hear your opinion.
The first is Henry the rescue, it wouldn't be appropriate to bring him more on the hind, he just didn't have the strength
By seeking, do you mean reaching for the bit? In the second picture he was definitely hanging a bit- he was a little "chargey" that day, but moving out really well, not tense or bunched at all.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by imjustjoking22

Thanks for the response! I was curious to hear your opinion.
The first is Henry the rescue, it wouldn't be appropriate to bring him more on the hind, he just didn't have the strength

Oh, sure! Hind end strength builds over time. One can't expect him to be able to sit and push from the get-go. He looks like he's really trying, which is the important thing. If he maintains what looks to be really nice energy, and is ridden correctly, it won't take him long at all to start to be able to correct his posture for a few strides here and there, and then more strides, etc.

By seeking, do you mean reaching for the bit?

Yep Looking for the contact, but not looking to run through it or lean on it.

In the second picture he was definitely hanging a bit- he was a little "chargey" that day, but moving out really well, not tense or bunched at all.

Makes sense

[imjustjoking22]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Oh, sure! Hind end strength builds over time. One can't expect him to be able to sit and push from the get-go. He looks like he's really trying, which is the important thing. If he maintains what looks to be really nice energy, and is ridden correctly, it won't take him long at all to start to be able to correct his posture for a few strides here and there, and then more strides, etc.

Yep Looking for the contact, but not looking to run through it or lean on it.

Makes sense

Yea, poor Henry was really coming along before he started having navicular problems

And the picture with Kai especially makes sense knowing that when he runs I go first to my hands He is happy to "compress" his frame further rather than actually slow down!

(p.s. sorry for the shameless hijack of this thread )

[KristinJ]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Just because a crank noseband exists doesn't mean you have to crank it Sometimes you just love the bridle, and it happens to come with the crank. IMNSHO, NO horse should have that caveson cranked. If he has to in order to "behave" then there are some serious training issues, or the horse is not really meant for this job. To have a dressage horse, where softness and suppleness in the jaw is critical, cranked shut, is an oxymoron.

Of course, I doubt I will ever get into the stage of a double bridle, but who knows. It seems as though SOME of the rollkur people seem to really CRANK 'em shut ... =/

[Roleysnewmom]

Originally Posted by imjustjoking22

The rollkur thing makes me giggle a bit because my horse's "nervous habit" is grooming his chest- I have seen him spend quite a bit of time with his head against his chest, rubbing it with his nose

He's never seemed to be uncomfortable doing that...and while I have never used rollkur, I frequently ride him behind the vertical- mostly in our warmups and cool downs, simply because that is his "happy" place. I don't ask for it (simply because that is not what scores well in dressage) but when we are doing stretchy trot/canter he picks his frame. Certainly doesn't bother me or him

That being said, I think it is a different thing entirely when a leverage bit is involved. I wouldn't force my horse's neck into any extreme position.

The same happens with my horse. We're working on it, because I know it's not desirable, but I wonder really how much pain it could be putting him in if he chooses to do so on his own? We go no where near rolkur, but I could understand (I'm gonna get killed for this I know) people using it as a training method. Obviously a training method is abuse when done incorrectly over overused, as with any one of the gadgets that modern day riders are using. I can't say I would ever use it based on the backlash, but really as some of you said, I'd like to know why these riders are using it. There could be completely logistic thinking behind it. I don't know the horse. I dont know the rider. I dont know how either was trained. Only then would I freely judge them. Just my honest opinion.

[imjustjoking22]

Originally Posted by Roleysnewmom

The same happens with my horse. We're working on it, because I know it's not desirable, but I wonder really how much pain it could be putting him in if he chooses to do so on his own? We go no where near rolkur, but I could understand (I'm gonna get killed for this I know) people using it as a training method. Obviously a training method is abuse when done incorrectly over overused, as with any one of the gadgets that modern day riders are using. I can't say I would ever use it based on the backlash, but really as some of you said, I'd like to know why these riders are using it. There could be completely logistic thinking behind it. I don't know the horse. I dont know the rider. I dont know how either was trained. Only then would I freely judge them. Just my honest opinion.

I agree with this- I just don't feel knowledgeable enough to judge.

There are definitely a lot of pictures out there that make it look very strange and uncomfortable.

But to me, something like this video (Gal and Totilas) doesn't look like a black and white "BAD"- the horse looks forward and relaxed and very focused.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZkAqyniCgE

Like I said- I really haven't formed an opinion either way- just don't know enough about it (and I don't think most people even *can* know enough about it) to judge the upper level riders doing it. It's obviously a technique that is incredibly inappropriate and harmful in unexperienced hands.

BUT- your average human being would consider this "unnatural", "painful", (not to mention nearly impossible- and yet a strong, flexible, and conditioned athlete does this with ease

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt1Tta90tug

[Rummymuffin]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

So this horse is staying there out of how own volition?


This one too?

You said it yourself in another post on this thread; a photo is a moment in time. Do not assume that I support rollkur; I have just seen it in less extreme examples and I have watched videos of top riders performing it. They do not tug constantly on the reins; they pull the horse down, let go. Horse goes up, flex the horse down again. By the time the horse reaches the upper levels, they just stay down there.