Rolkur...what exactly is it?

Rummymuffin · 10-26-2009, 10:07 AM

Rollkur first became prevalent on the scene of upper level dressage with Nicole Uphoff, then Isabel Werth then Anky, and then the rest. Uphoff used it on Rembrandt, who was notoriously hot, sensitive, and difficult to show. She had a huge amount of success. Likewise, Salinero is known to be extremely explosive and dangerous. The technique is a popular means of controlling horses that are extremely athletic and sensitive, it's a means of obtaining submission, mental and physical.

It's important to note that the riders only train in rollkur, they don't compete in that frame. Also, I've never seen rollkur with constant contact on the mouth in a downward pulling motion, rather riders place the horse in the desired deep position and then give. A horse that is used to rollkur will stay in that frame until the rider shortens the contact and lifts the poll.

Last thing; most riders that train their horses in rollkur do not encourage others to do so. Anky has gone on record many times stating that it is a technique that works for her and her horses; she does not teach/preach it at clinics. Many other riders deny training rollkur, though they have been "caught" on camera riding in hyperflexion in warm-ups.

red00jeep · 10-26-2009, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBandRio

There is a difference between momentarily taking a horse to an "over" flexed position to supple and loosen and yes, show him that there is a middle ground which can be quite comfortable. Momentary over-flexion can also be used in a chiropractic manner (you MUST know what you're doing!)

Rollkur is when the horse is ridden over-flexed for extended periods of time.

Thanks for the explanation JB and Farmeress! So what is the purpose of ridding like this for extended periods of time? What exactly does it achieve? Simply... submission?

JBandRio · 10-26-2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rummymuffin

Also, I've never seen rollkur with constant contact on the mouth in a downward pulling motion, rather riders place the horse in the desired deep position and then give. A horse that is used to rollkur will stay in that frame until the rider shortens the contact and lifts the poll.

So this horse is staying there out of how own volition?

This one too?

JBandRio · 10-26-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red00jeep

Thanks for the explanation JB and Farmeress! So what is the purpose of ridding like this for extended periods of time? What exactly does it achieve? Simply... submission?

That is one of the thoughts put forward by those who disagree with it. By taking away the horse's ability to see much of what he's doing, he's put into a state of helplessness.

KristinJ · 10-26-2009, 11:46 AM

Personally, I don't like it. I like my horses to look proud, see the sky. NOT saying their heads should be up in the sky and noses out, but On the vertical with a break at the poll is what I try to acheieve.

I am not a dressage rider and never have been. I hope to be able to get into a lot of it as my horse grows (i like the look at all different branches of disciplines). So I don't know who scores better and such, but I have a question about the 'crank' nosebands. Do any of your use them? I've have read very minimal information on them and most info made it sound cruel. But don't almost ALL double bridles have crank nosebands? I guess you could just swap out the noseband.

If a horse is truly accepting the bit and rider why do we need them? I know a lot of western horses don't use them .... just curious.

JBandRio · 10-26-2009, 12:06 PM

Just because a crank noseband exists doesn't mean you have to crank it

Sometimes you just love the bridle, and it happens to come with the crank. IMNSHO, NO horse should have that caveson cranked. If he has to in order to "behave" then there are some serious training issues, or the horse is not really meant for this job. To have a dressage horse, where softness and suppleness in the jaw is critical, cranked shut, is an oxymoron.

leoparddraft · 10-26-2009, 12:12 PM

I don't see how you can "force" a horse to do anything.

JBandRio · 10-26-2009, 01:18 PM

Use enough ropes/pulleys and you can force a lot of things.

imjustjoking22 · 10-26-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBandRio

And that is very incorrect, sorry. The horse is not coming through his topline if he is maintaining a BTV position on no contact. He may be "comfortable" there, but it's a mental comfort, and is not physically correct.

JB would you agree that this horse is btv but working through his back- and so, fairly correct? (as a warm-up frame)

this is a higher frame and a bit more "pulled in" but to me also does not look uncomfortable to the horse (and while some riders with leverage bits may be able to crank their horse's heads in, I can personally attest to the fact that I do not have that type of strength with a fat snaffle

)

Huntseat · 10-26-2009, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leoparddraft

I don't see how you can "force" a horse to do anything.

Physics and pain.

10-26-2009, 11:46 AM	#25
KristinJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: New York Posts: 1,247 Images: 4	Personally, I don't like it. I like my horses to look proud, see the sky. NOT saying their heads should be up in the sky and noses out, but On the vertical with a break at the poll is what I try to acheieve. I am not a dressage rider and never have been. I hope to be able to get into a lot of it as my horse grows (i like the look at all different branches of disciplines). So I don't know who scores better and such, but I have a question about the 'crank' nosebands. Do any of your use them? I've have read very minimal information on them and most info made it sound cruel. But don't almost ALL double bridles have crank nosebands? I guess you could just swap out the noseband. If a horse is truly accepting the bit and rider why do we need them? I know a lot of western horses don't use them .... just curious. __________________ Proud Owner of: Answer to Prayer (Nikki) 1984 American Quarter Horse Gelding Charms Bachelor Will (William) 2008 American Solid Paint Horse Gelding Rambo 1991 Minature Pony Gelding "Anything forced or misunderstood can never be beautiful." -Xenophon

10-26-2009, 12:06 PM	#26
JBandRio Senior Member+ Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NC Posts: 32,004 Images: 196 Blog Entries: 12	Just because a crank noseband exists doesn't mean you have to crank it Sometimes you just love the bridle, and it happens to come with the crank. IMNSHO, NO horse should have that caveson cranked. If he has to in order to "behave" then there are some serious training issues, or the horse is not really meant for this job. To have a dressage horse, where softness and suppleness in the jaw is critical, cranked shut, is an oxymoron. __________________ - JB Acres, owned and operated by Dynamite animals. - It's a wonder horses as a whole don't just kill us all and be done with their misery. - Keep your voice soothing and low - even when things get western (buck1173)

10-26-2009, 01:18 PM	#28
JBandRio Senior Member+ Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NC Posts: 32,004 Images: 196 Blog Entries: 12	Use enough ropes/pulleys and you can force a lot of things. __________________ - JB Acres, owned and operated by Dynamite animals. - It's a wonder horses as a whole don't just kill us all and be done with their misery. - Keep your voice soothing and low - even when things get western (buck1173)

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10-26-2009, 10:07 AM	#21
Rummymuffin Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Maine Posts: 367 Images: 1	Rollkur first became prevalent on the scene of upper level dressage with Nicole Uphoff, then Isabel Werth then Anky, and then the rest. Uphoff used it on Rembrandt, who was notoriously hot, sensitive, and difficult to show. She had a huge amount of success. Likewise, Salinero is known to be extremely explosive and dangerous. The technique is a popular means of controlling horses that are extremely athletic and sensitive, it's a means of obtaining submission, mental and physical. It's important to note that the riders only train in rollkur, they don't compete in that frame. Also, I've never seen rollkur with constant contact on the mouth in a downward pulling motion, rather riders place the horse in the desired deep position and then give. A horse that is used to rollkur will stay in that frame until the rider shortens the contact and lifts the poll. Last thing; most riders that train their horses in rollkur do not encourage others to do so. Anky has gone on record many times stating that it is a technique that works for her and her horses; she does not teach/preach it at clinics. Many other riders deny training rollkur, though they have been "caught" on camera riding in hyperflexion in warm-ups.

10-26-2009, 12:12 PM	#27
leoparddraft Banned Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: ... Posts: 114	I don't see how you can "force" a horse to do anything.