[JBandRio]

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/index.php

[Lyre]

Kat, I agree with you. It seems to be in the opposite direction to what I see as dressage

I'mjustjoking - to me, your horse scratching his chest while stationary is a completely different scenario to a] having his head cranked there and held there by heavy hands and a bit b] being asked to use himself and work with his head in that position & also carry a rider. I'm not sure he would spend all that time chewing his chest without a break, either?

I also think that rollkur is far beyond a bit BTV in warm ups and cool downs if your horse willingly does so... maybe somebody should name hyperflexion "on the horizontal", for accuracy's sake

Apparently too, the "rollkur" frame cannot be maintained by the horse for long periods of time. Thus, it's up to the rider to keep the horse there with their hands and weight :/ People have also described watching it in use in person and hearing laboured breathing from the horses as their windpipes are compressed. I hope to God I never see it in person >_<

I'm going to read that sustainabledressage article that JbandRio posted now xD I believe I have read it before but not for a long time.

[red00jeep]

Apologizes, through and through hunter here, so pardon the ignorance, but I've heard that the practice of hyperflexion is done in the warm up ring to encourage the horse to hold themselves in the less severe frame of simply being on the vertical during the test...?

Poo, I'm not wording that well at all . Perhaps someone can decode it, haha.

Also, is it true that Anky Van Grunsven (whooo, probably totally butchered the spelling of her name) was one of the founders of the practice, or was the first rider to publicly practice it? Isn't she a top rider in the sport?

[imjustjoking22]

Originally Posted by Lyre

I'mjustjoking - to me, your horse scratching his chest while stationary is a completely different scenario to a] having his head cranked there and held there by heavy hands and a bit b] being asked to use himself and work with his head in that position & also carry a rider. I'm not sure he would spend all that time chewing his chest without a break, either?

I also think that rollkur is far beyond a bit BTV in warm ups and cool downs if your horse willingly does so... maybe somebody should name hyperflexion "on the horizontal", for accuracy's sake

I think we were making the same point- the "amusing" part to me did not extend to finding rollkur itself amusing

Although to answer your question, I have seen him do it for several minutes on occasion (like close to 10 )- bizarre!! He used to do it a lot- rarely does it anymore. I think it tied in to some confidence issues?

Anyway-I definitely agree that there is a big difference between the two- allowing v. forcing behind the vertical.

I only brought it up because that is usually where this general discussion leads

[Lyre]

Originally Posted by imjustjoking22

Although to answer your question, I have seen him do it for several minutes on occasion (like close to 10 )- bizarre!! He used to do it a lot- rarely does it anymore. I think it tied in to some confidence issues?

For some reason I got a mental image of a horse holding his head under the sand at that statement! That is interesting x]

[farmeress]

Originally Posted by red00jeep

Apologizes, through and through hunter here, so pardon the ignorance, but I've heard that the practice of hyperflexion is done in the warm up ring to encourage the horse to hold themselves in the less severe frame of simply being on the vertical during the test...?

That is the belief anyway.....plus it over flexes the neck for better stretch in the extentions

Poo, I'm not wording that well at all . Perhaps someone can decode it, haha.

Also, is it true that Anky Van Grunsven (whooo, probably totally butchered the spelling of her name) was one of the founders of the practice, or was the first rider to publicly practice it? Isn't she a top rider in the sport?

Good Lord but that judge was on crack that day...giving a score like that and starting a craze....almost as bad as the judge who started placing riders who were hunched over their horses in the Hunter ring

What is Rolkur.....

EVIL!!

[Lyre]

That article just outlined something very sad to me. And it completely explains why some horses "seem okay" while being "rollkured" at competitions. Hence people thinking that it is not hurting the horses mentally or physically.

The extreme form of overbending where the joint between the 2nd and 3rd vertebrae of the neck is at the very end of its range of motion, works in the same way as a policeman's grip around the suspect's arm, threatening to dislocate it or cause pain unless the suspect complies. The neck of the horse is very agile and a lot of nerves and reflexes are located in the conntective tissues to ensure that the spinal cord running through the vertebrae is not harmed. Imagine yourself with the arm behind your back, and the person holding it there says "-Dance!"

...

Benefits at competition? Why people do this? It has nothing to do with the horse's well-being, that's for sure.

In three sentences: When a horse has been trained to keep his head down, no matter how much he loses balance, how tricky something is or how interfering the rider is, that horse scores better in a dressage test, compared to one ridden on the fine line between collection and liberty.
That is because the horse ridden "at liberty on parole" occasionally shows his momentary loss of balance by throwing his head up. A rollkured horse has learned that opposing the rider will not improve his situation, to put it mildly.

...

Sadly, many judges don't seem to notice loss of balance as long as the head stays down. Or if balance is on the forehand as a rule and not an exception.


...



One of the major advantages of this method is that it gives a very manageable horse in the competition arena. You get a horse that agrees to go on the forehand and not lean on the hands or throw up his head when he loses balance or gets tired.
At first glance, everything looks to be going rather smoothly, and "balance" never fails, and suppleness and submission clearly shows in the consistent "giving" to the riders aids.


...


Many of the more finely-ridden, but rollkur-trained horses, don't swish with their tails much, don't make "funny faces" all the time, and seem quite at ease in their emotional expressions, while in the competition arena. This, one could argue, is because they actually find it easy to do things with the head in a normal position and to be able to use the neck some. Compared to how they are usually trained, showing off in the test is a piece of cake! Who knows how much they swish during training at home?


Not necessarily related to rollkur, but rather to competition riding in general, several test have been made of the level of anxiety in the horse at home during training, compared to away at competition. Contrary to what one would believe many horses were more at ease in the competition arena than at home schooling. It was speculated that the horses didn't fear correction/punishment in the competition arena, but probably did at home. They had learned that if something goes wrong away at competition, you don't get to try to do it over and over again, like you would at home, training.

That totally explains how Tortilas can look so happy to be doing his job at competitions, and yet be cranked on by his rider at other times. And how horses are simply forced to submit no matter what. That is ultimately what rollkur is: FORCED SUBMISSION. Sjef has said it himself. It is the EXACT opposite of the aims of dressage. Dressage is partnership. Dressage is ASKING the horse to do something, and the horse complying because it wants to. I'm disgusted by people who do this. Totally disgusted. Sorry for the rant but the more that I look into this the more I hate it >_<

Here is an explanation from some people who do it, by the way. Was mentioned in the sustainable dressage articles. http://www.horsemagazine.com/CLINIC/...EF/NewSjef.htm

[XxLiveToRidexX]

Originally Posted by imjustjoking22

The rollkur thing makes me giggle a bit because my horse's "nervous habit" is grooming his chest- I have seen him spend quite a bit of time with his head against his chest, rubbing it with his nose

He's never seemed to be uncomfortable doing that...and while I have never used rollkur, I frequently ride him behind the vertical- mostly in our warmups and cool downs, simply because that is his "happy" place. I don't ask for it (simply because that is not what scores well in dressage) but when we are doing stretchy trot/canter he picks his frame. Certainly doesn't bother me or him

That being said, I think it is a different thing entirely when a leverage bit is involved. I wouldn't force my horse's neck into any extreme position.

I really agree with this. While, I often do ride my horse BTV its because he rides most comfortably there. I can literally ride him with NO rein contact, and he will trot comfortably around the arena BTV.

Picture for reference:

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by red00jeep

Apologizes, through and through hunter here, so pardon the ignorance, but I've heard that the practice of hyperflexion is done in the warm up ring to encourage the horse to hold themselves in the less severe frame of simply being on the vertical during the test...?

There is a difference between momentarily taking a horse to an "over" flexed position to supple and loosen and yes, show him that there is a middle ground which can be quite comfortable. Momentary over-flexion can also be used in a chiropractic manner (you MUST know what you're doing!)

Rollkur is when the horse is ridden over-flexed for extended periods of time.

Originally Posted by XxLiveToRidexX

I really agree with this. While, I often do ride my horse BTV its because he rides most comfortably there. I can literally ride him with NO rein contact, and he will trot comfortably around the arena BTV.

Picture for reference:

And that is very incorrect, sorry. The horse is not coming through his topline if he is maintaining a BTV position on no contact. He may be "comfortable" there, but it's a mental comfort, and is not physically correct.

[MischiefManaged]

Not that I agree with it, but here's the reasoning I have heard for rollkur: if you practice with the head curled and on the forehand, it is more difficult to lift the front legs. Once you allow the head to come up to competition standards, the front legs supposedly come up higher as well.

Personally, I see a lot more "rollkur" in western pleasure than dressage. Sure, you see pictures of the big names in dressage practicing rollkur, but I have yet to see it in person, or with a lower level rider. I have yet to watch a western show there the majority of the riders were not cranking and yanking on their horses. The dressage riders tend to take the neck to more of an extreme, but hold it steadier without yanking. The western riders don't have the head as far down, but it gets there with big yanks, and tight training forks. I also am always stunned to see them talking on the phone, at the halt, paying no attention to the horse, but yanking on it's mouth. Last show, I watched two men jog around the warmup for over an hour paying no attention to their horses, but chatting up a storm with each other. Both continually yanked their horses heads side to side, and up and down. I can't fathom what good that does?

Why can't people just ride normally?