[allison finch]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Farmeress, I'm not disagreeing with anything you said Mostly

My only point of "disagreement" is that I do think some of these horses are just too hot for the precise, controlled work they are being asked to do. I don't think it's all about better training, or going more slowly, or better riders. I think it's a matter of such selective breeding - for the flash - that along the way they forgot that people actually have to be able to ride and control their horses.

In my opinion, not all horses are temperamentally suited for upper level work. I have had many horses brought to me to train. The owners WANTED a dressage horse, period. Sometimes, the horse just didn't like the work. Yes, you can "force" training onto an unwilling horse. What you end up achieving is a horse with only half his heart in what he is doing. As such, he will never be a true partner. I don't waste my time forcing horses, who would rather do something else, into doing dressage. The owners, no doubt, paid lots of money for the horse and want what they want.

I remember one TB who hated dressage. I took him hunting and WOW, what a different attitude he had. He absolutely loved it. The owners saw this and decided to sell him to a staff member, where he had a long and very satisfying life. Too bad the money gets in the way of these happy stories.

On the other hand, I have been given horses who had been trained by rough trainers which CAME to hate dressage. I have had success retraining these horses to love dressage again, becoming quite successful.

Is rollkur ever helpful? Maybe for short periods in their training. But, in my opinion, it should not be a persistent daily part of their daily maintenance.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by ponypony

Sorry if this was already mentioned, I couldn't find it but, What is the point of rolkur? What are the results the rider is trying to get? People use this method for a reason, so it must get some sort of desired result. Basically I don't know anyone who does this, so I can't ask "Why do you use rolkur?"

pony, you really need to read the thread I think it will answer your questions

Originally Posted by allison finch

In my opinion, not all horses are temperamentally suited for upper level work.

Absolutely agree!! He can be the most talented, gifted horse that makes you want to lay down your life for him, watching him in a field, but ask him for some higher level of collection and he says "Nope, don't think so, can't make me, don't like it, go take a flying leap."

I have had many horses brought to me to train. The owners WANTED a dressage horse, period. Sometimes, the horse just didn't like the work. Yes, you can "force" training onto an unwilling horse. What you end up achieving is a horse with only half his heart in what he is doing. As such, he will never be a true partner. I don't waste my time forcing horses, who would rather do something else, into doing dressage. The owners, no doubt, paid lots of money for the horse and want what they want.

Sad That will always exist, unfortunately. You can have the most perfect moving and jumping, "quiet" horse for the Hunter ring, and that horse HATES the inside-outside-inside-outside in a ring - he wants to be going cross-country

I remember one TB who hated dressage. I took him hunting and WOW, what a different attitude he had. He absolutely loved it. The owners saw this and decided to sell him to a staff member, where he had a long and very satisfying life. Too bad the money gets in the way of these happy stories.

LOL, there ya go!

[John]

I wonder if rolkur would work for roping? You could get much closer to the cow and not have to toss that rope as far.

[FoxyRoxy1507]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

pony, you really need to read the thread I think it will answer your questions


Absolutely agree!! He can be the most talented, gifted horse that makes you want to lay down your life for him, watching him in a field, but ask him for some higher level of collection and he says "Nope, don't think so, can't make me, don't like it, go take a flying leap."


Sad That will always exist, unfortunately. You can have the most perfect moving and jumping, "quiet" horse for the Hunter ring, and that horse HATES the inside-outside-inside-outside in a ring - he wants to be going cross-country


LOL, there ya go!

this is sooo true, my smaller gelding would have made an amazing Hunter/Eq horse, i had sooo many offers on him, but he absolutely hated it, he wanted to do Jumpers and that is what we do. He likes some cross country and he is an amazing dressage horse as well, once again doesnt really like dressage either but we dabble there sometimes, he tolerates for a while. but if you force a horse into something it doesnt want to do u never achieve that bond and its just so not worth it to me. i hate seeing horses forced to do something they dont want to just bc theyre good at it, you can always tell the ones that are like this, theyre so unhappy and heartless about it.

[SunBun]

Originally Posted by allison finch

Here is a great comparison on dressage/reining in a wonderful pas de deux. I think the western rider was the more versatile, IMHO

ENJOY!!

YouTube - Fest der Pferde 2008: Klassik trifft western Smart Rattle Snake und Lausbub

I will never ever EVER get tired of this video

And I'm not sure why..probably just personal preference...but watching reining/western riding is so much more emotional for me. It just all seems so natural and fluid and effortless and enjoyable. Not saying that dressage isn't, though. i guess that's just where the personal preference part comes in

[IIIBarsV]

I have this "cringe" auto-response when I think about reining training. Far too rough of a style for my liking.

[Gutter_Doll]

IIIBarsV - could you elaborate on the reining training comment?

[IIIBarsV]

Been to some reining shows and high-end barns (we're talking NRHA champions, Open, Pro, etc)... there is a LOT of jerking and spurring going on. I know this is in no way the "whole group", but yeah, generally, reiners are not known for being gentle or "light as feathers" on their horses during training.

Let it be known that I am NOT basing this opinion on one or two bad incidents. I am basing this opinion on multiple incidents from a variety of sources and individuals, as well as anecdotals from a variety of individuals at a variety of places. Excessive roughness on the riders' part in reining training is a widespread problem and it absolutely NEEDS to be addressed. I know a few reiners who are good riders and not rough on their horses whatsoever.... but finding them has been a real chore.

The most common "training faults on the riders part" are:

- Jerk, jerk, jerk on the big shank bit and/or single twisted-wire snaffle. In the name of "lightening the horses mouth".
- Spur, spur, spur to the point where the horse is bruised.
- Tiedowns, rollkuring, improper use of draw reins.
- Generally making life miserable for the horse, and disrespecting them.

These are highly intelligent and trainable, willing horses- they have some of the kindest minds I've ever seen. There is NO reason to be pounding on them in the name of getting a faster spin or "lightening the shoulders", or ripping their face off during the back ups.... no reason except plain old poor horsemanship (and maybe sadism).

I have had the pleasure of training a few reining-bred horses over the years. They were the lightest and easiest to train in my history of various breeds and types of horses. Certainly did not require any roughness (maybe a whack on the bum for a little more "wake up".

Any trainer or rider who thinks they need to use anything more than light pressure from hand or spurs on these horses during training... needs to get a clue.

(I will never change my opinion on this one.)