[accphotography]

Have we discussed this mare before? I've seen her before but I never really thought about it. She has frame, yes. Her frame is from Racey Remarque of course. There is no splash line in her pedigree that I know of... is there TCF?

Pedigree: http://www.pedigreequery.com/start+the+rumors

Her:


I guess I always dismissed her white as frame without thinking about it. Dumb. Frame does not put white on legs and I find it VERY hard to believe that sabino alone could put this much white on a frame individual. The white under the belly and the white pushing upward at the girth and flank lines is CLASSIC splash ala: . This is how splash "flows" in it's loudest form. This mare is frame negative and no tobiano so this is all the work of splash with maybe a boost from sabino (no eyeliner or fuzzy edges so I doubt it, this mayb truly be splash alone). Not only do her legs and the flow of her white interest me, but her face speaks to me. From her right side it looks like she just has nromal face white. From her left, WOW! She looks bald faced from the left. Talk about the classic "falling off one side of the face" splash trick! While she does have eyeliner, I'll blame sabino for that. Another thing that interests me is that eye is BLUE. Now she does have frame so that could be what it is, but with that bald look and falling off the side... I'm thinking splash.

Her '06 filly also has face and leg white suspicious of splash and the photo of her dam nuzzling her is where I spotted the blue eye:


Her '07 foal also has suspicious leg white, namely his left fore:


Now I do not believe her splash came from Racey Remarque as his lines are well known and I have not seen any of his that have struck me as splash. I have read that Rumors dam was very loud but I can NOT find a photo of her even though I know where she currently lives (email to them pending). They say she is "overo", but she does NOT come from frame lines so I must assume she is either loud sabino (not sure they would call a loud sabino "overo" knowing this farm), or she is carrying splash. This is Rumors full brother: http://www.orchardviewsporthorses.com/t-Remarquez.aspx. He also looks splash to me (leg white even with frame, falling off side of face white, and a moustache).

So... what do you guys think? And have we discussed her before? Am I losing my mind? It is 3am.......

ACC

[accphotography]

Here is another that interests me... he is negative for frame and looks far more than sabino to me:
http://www.colorworld-ranch.com/spot.html

And his full sister and offspring also look splash to me. These guys ring a bell. Have we discussed them with regards to splash before?
http://www.colorworld-ranch.com/mares1.html

The 2nd mare on this page is out of the dam of Start The Rumors (above) and looks suspicious of splash to me again. But she has Dancebel as her sire and he is the sire of the possible splashes I noted above so she's a tough one:
http://www.colorworld-ranch.com/mares2.html

The 2nd foal here is frame negative and looks splash. She is out of the mare I mentioned above so we're back to the Dancebel lines:
http://www.colorworld-ranch.com/2007foals.html

The 3rd foal on the same page is interesting with the face white and the leg white despite the frame. Dam does not appear splash and sire is full to Racey Remarque. Ok so this puts Racey in question for splash.... hmmm:
http://www.colorworld-ranch.com/2007foals.html

2nd foal on this page is highly suspicious of frame... but he is out of Dance Dub L who I mentioned above. He has both Dancebel and Racey lines so again... who is to blame???:
http://www.colorworld-ranch.com/2006foals.html

The 3rd and 4th foals on this page are related to C Spot Go who I mentioned above for possible splash and these foals show characteristics consistent with splash:
http://www.colorworld-ranch.com/2006foals.html

Two more Ellusive Quest (Racey's full) foals that are suspicious:
http://www.colorworld-ranch.com/2005foals1.html

A Dancebel line and a C Spot Go foal that could be:
http://www.colorworld-ranch.com/2005foals2.html

2nd foal is a Dance Spot x Racey combo that shows frame and splash (also dam displaying her splash in pics):
http://www.colorworld-ranch.com/2004foals1.html

Another C Spot Go (Dancebel son) foal displaying HIGH leg white despite his frame from his mom (Racey's dam):
http://www.colorworld-ranch.com/2003foals.html

And I hate to bring this name up... I Was Framed. RMT I KNOW you mentioned him to me with regards to splash and I'm pretty sure I dismissed it. But... he is out of Dance Spot who I am growing more and mroe convinced is splash...
http://www.colorworld-ranch.com/2002foals.html

I Was Framed's full sister looks minimal splash to me. And hey LOOK below her... another Wine Cooler (dam of Start the Rumors above)baby. In fact she is a full to Start the Rumors, being my Racey. I see possible splash there too, but again is it Racey or Wine?:
http://www.colorworld-ranch.com/2001foals.html

Hmmmmmmm....... RMT HELP ME!!! LOL!

ACC

[RiddleMeThis]

We have not talked about her before, but I have thought that Racey is splash.

One of his foal was born deaf. That is what honestly truely made me beleive that he is splash. I was doing a paper on frame and splash on TBS and emailed the breeder about the foal. She had no pictures and I was hoping for them. I emailed her because on Allbreed pedigree it says that the foal was deaf, but I didn't want to trust it, but the breeder did confirm that the foal was deaf.

I truely think Racey is splash. For the same reasons as the first horse you mention. He has four HIGH whites and his blaze is bottom heavy and falls off the side of his face. Plus he also had that deaf baby, that while without pictures or anything does not prove splash it definately hints at him. This horse is also by Racey and to me seems splash. Bald face, blue, eye, high whites on at least three legs.

Here is Raceys Dam. She looks possible splash.

Also out of the same dam as Racey http://dksporthorses.com/Regal%20Regalia_1.htm He appears splash to me.

So I guess what I am saying is that I beleive Racey is Splash. Dancebel also could be splash as well.

[accphotography]

Ok... so I know it was too much information. I was seriously sleep drunk at 3am, as I am again. LOL!

RMT or TCF around?

ACC

[accphotography]

I see I bumped during your reply. LOL!

Hmmmm. Certainly a case for Racey and his dam being splash. I'm also thinking Dancebel must be, but it's hard to tell because most of the Dancebel line has been crossed with the Racey line. I do wonder though... why so few blue eyes? And the ones that do have blue eyes also have frame... sooo...??? Are we seeing frame (or frame + sabino) mimic splash or are we seeing splash in a slightly unconventional form? This is tough.

I was thinking of posting this on EC but I'm afraid I will get too much "No way to know until we can test". I know there is no way to know but I want thoughts and theories.

ACC

[RiddleMeThis]

Ok so kinda wild theory but a theory none the less. There is the thought that something about black inhibits white. What if there is something that prevents blue eyes? Or maybe more beleivable something that supresses splash? Maybe if that is possible maybe its in TBs quite heavily. Idk kinda a far out theory but a theory.

I agree wit you thought I dont think that sabino can give that much high high whites with frame there by itself.

[accphotography]

Hmmmm. I have been a big believer in white suppression theories, particularly in Thoroughbreds. I don't necessarily think something that prevents blue eyes.... but... I don't believe splash suppression either do to the high whites and bald faces. Still too much white. I don't know... this is really weird.

Any chance we are looking at yet another strain of sabino? One that just happens to look alot like splash? But not like the classic splash of Whatever and family? Thus no blue eyes without frame...? But it would have to show higher expression than typical sabino as sabino alone and frame rarely show this kind of leg white. Hmmm.

The one deaf foal could have been deaf for other reasons...?

Tired again and rambling so these ideas may be crazy...

ACC

[RiddleMeThis]

Ok so stemming from my question about roan TBs, what if what happened to the Roan catchabird sibling happened somewhere to the splash gene in Tbs? Maybe mutating the part of it that causes blue eyes? Or I guess should cause blue eyes. Nothing recent but maybe something far back that is what started splash in the tbs? Or maybe something like the Catchabird, one of the offspring ended up with a mutated gene but the other offspring didnt. Which would explain the normal splash from whatevers line and the odd sort of splash looking of Raceys line and even my slightly possible Puchilingui line.

[accphotography]

That's a tough question. I would be more inclined to think it possible that some other gene (namely sabino in this case) mutated into a type of splash look-alike than that splash existed and yet sort of evolved.

I think my point is that I find it less likely that a "normal" splash gene would mutate and still be very much like splash minus one small difference, than that another gene would mutate creating a whole new gene (like frame did) that just seems to mimic splash. I'm sure you've read the comments on EC about the "chances of the exact same mutation happenning twice resulting in the same gene (yet unrelated to the existing gene, ie horse's not related) is highly unlikely". Yet totally new mutations are not unheard of and who is to say this is not one? It would be hard to say this is classic splasj, because in reality it isn't. Even these that DO look splash, don't look splash in the traditional (read Icelandic horses) sense. Sabino is rampant in TBs and they seem to carry many versions that we can't test for yet. I mean we know there is a sabino version causing max whites but it is not SB1. Who is to say how many different variations of sabino they may carry? Or... dominant white was thought to be sabino (to some extent) in the beginning before they realized it was a seperate gene. So this splash look-alike could be a whole other gene. Or it could be splash and there could be some type of modifiers that TBs carry that keeps it from doing it's classic things. Back to dominant white, I find it interesting that some of the phenotypes we used to call sabino have ended up being caused by dominant white. Sabino was basically used to describe any white that could not be clearly attributed to frame, tobiano, or obvious splash. That is changing with the discovery of dominant white... so is it not possible that what I may be blaming on some variation of sabino (this splash look-alike) could be a whole other gene entirely? It could indeed be splash... or sabino... or...?????

More rambling I think. I'm really just thinking aloud here. I started this thread thinking I had finally satisfied myself that splash does exist in Thoroughbreds (not including the Whatever line), but have ended up questioning myself to the extent that I don't know WHAT to think anymore... LOL!

ACC

[RiddleMeThis]

Originally Posted by accphotography

I think my point is that I find it less likely that a "normal" splash gene would mutate and still be very much like splash minus one small difference, than that another gene would mutate creating a whole new gene (like frame did) that just seems to mimic splash. I'm sure you've read the comments on EC about the "chances of the exact same mutation happenning twice resulting in the same gene (yet unrelated to the existing gene, ie horse's not related) is highly unlikely". Yet totally new mutations are not unheard of and who is to say this is not one? It would be hard to say this is classic splasj, because in reality it isn't. Even these that DO look splash, don't look splash in the traditional (read Icelandic horses) sense. Sabino is rampant in TBs and they seem to carry many versions that we can't test for yet. I mean we know there is a sabino version causing max whites but it is not SB1. Who is to say how many different variations of sabino they may carry? Or... dominant white was thought to be sabino (to some extent) in the beginning before they realized it was a seperate gene.

So this splash look-alike could be a whole other gene. Or it could be splash and there could be some type of modifiers that TBs carry that keeps it from doing it's classic things. Back to dominant white, I find it interesting that some of the phenotypes we used to call sabino have ended up being caused by dominant white. Sabino was basically used to describe any white that could not be clearly attributed to frame, tobiano, or obvious splash. That is changing with the discovery of dominant white... so is it not possible that what I may be blaming on some variation of sabino (this splash look-alike) could be a whole other gene entirely? It could indeed be splash... or sabino... or...?????

Yep I did read that, will comment at the end. Personally I still put DW and sabino together. I did not read the DW paper or the resulting discussion as a lot of it confused me. Not sure if it was because I was still having sleeping problems or if it really was over my head. But what I got was that it can create a max white horse or almost max white with only one gene where as sabino has to have two (supposedly) to get a max white. I see the difference but still feel that DW is a form of sabino.

More rambling I think. I'm really just thinking aloud here. I started this thread thinking I had finally satisfied myself that splash does exist in Thoroughbreds (not including the Whatever line), but have ended up questioning myself to the extent that I don't know WHAT to think anymore... LOL!

ACC

I would be inclined to beleive that TBs may have a suppressor. That is actually the one out of the theorys that I posted that I beleive in the most. (Did that sentance make sense?) I personally am wondering if splash is maybe a combination of genes that pass together. Maybe? Kind of like KIT is linked to extension. (I think that is the right one.) I also thought there was a percentage chance of KIT being passed with the other gene? So if it is connected to the E there was (I think you said 7%) chance that it would pass with e instead. Did I read that wrong? Maybe (if I understand all of that correctly) the gene that causes the splash white markings and the gene that causes blue eyes are seperate genes but linked. Then what happened in TBs is that in one of those 7% (using that as an example) chances it did get split from the blue eyed portion and that line without the blue eyes is the line that got heavily bred. Part of the reason for this is because I beleive at one point blue eyes were considered a bad thing or a weakness (kind of like white feet) and the horses were kind of bred out. But ya like I said random theory that just sort of came to me while I was reading this post, most likely not possible but it was a thought