RIDER TRAINING- Discussion; Soft Elbow/Stead Hands

CowGirlUp1833 · 09-05-2008, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harli36

Now for teaching steady hands that's a bit harder and IMO has nothing to do with teaching the rider to have steady hands and everything to do with teaching a steady balanced seat. A balancing strap helps through the learning process but it has much more to do with that.

I don't think its as simple as that.... a steady seat is most definitely a pre-requisit to learning this skill in relation to getting a horse round and on the bit. BUT, just because someone has a good seat, does NOT automatically mean the horse will come round for them... there is still a skill involved in acheiving this. Of course, with a good seat this is much easier!!

There is still a feel you need to learn to achieve in order to make it happen... in not only the hand and elbow, but also in the seat and leg...

JBandRio · 09-05-2008, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowGirlUp1833

A *bit* off topic... but I also will have them hold a bat in their hands (with the reins) as they ride...its another thing that will highlight how much their hands are moving and help them to keep their thumbs up and a straight line from elbow to bit...

I bet that serves the same purpose as bridging the reins

harli36 · 09-05-2008, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowGirlUp1833

I don't think its as simple as that.... a steady seat is most definitely a pre-requisit to learning this skill in relation to getting a horse round and on the bit. BUT, just because someone has a good seat, does NOT automatically mean the horse will come round for them... there is still a skill involved in acheiving this. Of course, with a good seat this is much easier!!

There is still a feel you need to learn to achieve in order to make it happen... in not only the hand and elbow, but also in the seat and leg...

I guess I didn't realize the question also included how to round a horse up. That's why I said (where you quoted me) about how to teach steady hands, not rounding up. Your right getting a horse to round has much more to do with steady hands and seat. A lot of it is probably just spending time in the saddle and working at it until it just clicks, at least that is how it was for me.

CowGirlUp1833 · 09-05-2008, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBandRio

I bet that serves the same purpose as bridging the reins

Yes, basically...

Rhythm 'n Blues · 09-05-2008, 06:11 PM

cowgirl - when I had a problem with my hands being a bit too high, my coach had me keep my pinkies on my saddle pad....that frustrated me SOOO much I wish she had let me use a bucking strap....it wasn't till much later that she allowed me to do that. I actually have one on almost every saddle that I ride on. I really like it for when I notice that my right hand is being "clinging" as I call it

Come to think about it, I never did ask my coach why she did this.......so perhaps she had some reason behind it.

I just thoght of another thing that a BNT had me do in a clinic years and years ago. Although I had a good straight line from bit to elbow, which means I didn't have straight arms, I was told that I had very stiff elbows, and that they weren't working independtly of my wrists. (I wasn't the only rider either that day) But the BNT had be riding around flapping my elbows like a chicken, although to much smaller extend, and she wanted me to keep my wrist and hands still.......try that one, it's not an easy task at all! But it does work to loosen not only the elbows but also the shoulders

Kissitgoodbye · 09-05-2008, 07:00 PM

Its not the seat that should be helping/steadying the hand it should be your shoulders, and your lower back.

But put all those things aside what it really boils down to is balance. Does the rider have the balance to sit equally on both seat bones? Does the rider have the fundamentals to repositions itself. If not, how do you teach that. Look where your horse wants to go little trick comes into play

I think so.

And what does that little trick make our bodies automatically do? Shift our weight. Its teaching the kids/students to knowing the resources of creating a balanced seat. And balanced hands and yada yada.

royalrox · 09-05-2008, 09:56 PM

*I* put them on a lunge with no reins to start, simply to get them independent of their hands. I have them do all kinds of odd positions to keep them busy

Then to actually learn the concept....I make it very technical, I find they understand it much easier if its described that way. What I tell them *basically lol* is at the trot when they go up their elbows should straighten, when they sit they should bend. At the canter when the horses head goes down they straighten when it comes up they bend. Obviously that's just VERY basic and simplistic but it helps them get the idea in the beginning

StockHorseGirl · 09-05-2008, 10:19 PM

A lady that I took some lessons with told me something to help me with my arms that has stuck in my mind. She said, to keep your arms moving with the horse think of them like the pistons of a train. This is of course more true to the walk and canter then the trot but even at the trot it reminds me.

CowGirlUp1833 · 09-06-2008, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kissitgoodbye

Look where your horse wants to go little trick comes into play

I think so.

And what does that little trick make our bodies automatically do? Shift our weight. Its teaching the kids/students to knowing the resources of creating a balanced seat. And balanced hands and yada yada.

Excellent point, and I'm always reminding students "visualize your path - plan your route".... I agree that *looking* is a HUGE factor in balance!

Quote:

Originally Posted by royalrox

*I* put them on a lunge with no reins to start, simply to get them independent of their hands. (#1) I have them do all kinds of odd positions to keep them busy

Then to actually learn the concept....I make it very technical, I find they understand it much easier if its described that way. (#2) What I tell them *basically lol* is at the trot when they go up their elbows should straighten, when they sit they should bend. At the canter when the horses head goes down they straighten when it comes up they bend. Obviously that's just VERY basic and simplistic but it helps them get the idea in the beginning

#1 I do this too, but I'm referring to students who already have good balance and quiet hands... now I'm just asking them to become MORE EFFECTIVE with those hands!

Understanding when is proper time to ask for the half halt, how to properly implement it and how to have soft contact and keep the horse steady in the bridle..... giving and taking as necessary to acheive this.

#2 Agreed... I tell them to "open and close the angle " in the elbow - your body moves but your hands stay with the horse.... But again, what I'm reffering to isn't students who are just learning to have steady hands, but rather those who are ready to move up to a higher level of connection with their horses.... most notabley students who have ridden other diciplines that may not have required contact like this before....saddleseat, hunter/jumper, HUS, etc.... I find students who start their riding career with me and are introduced to this concept from the beginning have a lot easier time with it... .its' those of us (Myself included!) who were taught more "point and shoot" type riding (*cough* hunter/jumper! LOL) that have to really re-learn HOW to USE your hands to do more then turn your horses head

MIEventer · 09-06-2008, 09:05 AM

hope I can stay on track.

What a fabulous thread to start!

How many riders do we look at, in photographs, in shows, riding at the barn - who ride with to low of hands, stiff, locked, holding, forcing instead of carried hands, soft, supple, giving and supporting?

Far too many. Because riders are not being taught properly how to have effective aids, to have independant aids and supportive/encouraging aids.

How many to we see with horses on the muscle? Horses heavy on the fore? Horses mouths who would be gaped open if it weren't for the flash being used on them?

More than we should.

If only these riders are being taught what your students are being taught Kimberly.

Riders are not being taught to carry their hands. They are not being taught to leave their horses faces alone, not being taught to ride from back to front and not being taught that the horse SEARCHES for the contact, not being pulled into contact.

I have to say my hands are my downfall. I am either too stiff or too soft. I will start out with a good length in my rein, my fingers closed, hands carried and then I'll realize I am stiff and locked - so I relax. Then I discover my reins are now too long because when I relaxed, my fingers opened.

I was never taught proper hands until my last 2 coaches. Who are - believe it or not - Hunter/Jumpers who competed A Circuit.

It also took an R Rated Dressage Judge from New York to point it out to me, when I got the priveledge to have a 1 on 1 with her at the show. I had my score sheets in hand and we went through them together.

What my coaches have done with and are doing with me to learn Independant Aids and Supportive Aids with my hands

- Proper Hand Placement when riding first and foremost. Carry them where they need to be. NOT near the neck, not near or on the withers, not spread apart and not in my lap. But carried.

The moment I allow my hands to drop, I stiffen up and hold instead of being soft and supportive

- Lunge Line Work without Reins. WOW you really do find your seat, you really do find your legs and your upper body - and guess what...when you find your seat you find you core!

How often do we see riders with a forward upper body and a closed hip angle while on the flat??? Too many! How many do we see riding on their 3 points and not on their crotch? Not enough. The moment you sit up tall and start using your seat bones....your core says HELLO I AM HERE

lol.

I have left a lesson after working on the Lunge Line without Reins - with a sore tummy because my muscles were really worked.

Without your core, you have nothing. As JBandRio said - your core is the center of everything. The most important factor to riding.

- Thumb placement - believe it or not, this has really helped me! I used to ride with my thumbs directly up, which yes, that is how it should be - but my coach had me rotate my thumbs inwards just a tad, which softened me up.

I also believe that it takes a rider to feel it and experience it for themselves to understand the difference between soft, supportive hands/elbows from stiff, low, locked, holding hands/elbows.

I believe that there are quite a few riders out there on under developed horses who cannot carry themselves, and on greener horses who cannot aid the rider.........let me rephrase that.

I believe younger riders, riders who are growing and learning need to be on horses above them in abillity, training and education - so that these riders can learn to use themselves properly and learn to have independant aids. Being on these horses can benefit the rider in many, many ways. Instead we find many younger riders, riders with holes in their training - on horses who are greener, greenies, or same level as the rider where they are not aiding, helping the rider.

Does that make sense?

I would rather have a younger rider, riders who are beginning, riders who are not at the point of understanding independant, soft, supporting aids - to be on horses who are School Masters/Been There Done That mounts so that they can focus on themselves first before worrying about other things. So that they can learn the importancies of Softness, Supportive, Giving, Taking, Lifting, Encouraging aids and the most important - independant.

Just a though

I think posters have given FABULOUS tips and advice on how to achieve this goal.

09-05-2008, 06:11 PM	#25
Rhythm 'n Blues Senior Member+ Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,877 Images: 76	cowgirl - when I had a problem with my hands being a bit too high, my coach had me keep my pinkies on my saddle pad....that frustrated me SOOO much I wish she had let me use a bucking strap....it wasn't till much later that she allowed me to do that. I actually have one on almost every saddle that I ride on. I really like it for when I notice that my right hand is being "clinging" as I call it Come to think about it, I never did ask my coach why she did this.......so perhaps she had some reason behind it. I just thoght of another thing that a BNT had me do in a clinic years and years ago. Although I had a good straight line from bit to elbow, which means I didn't have straight arms, I was told that I had very stiff elbows, and that they weren't working independtly of my wrists. (I wasn't the only rider either that day) But the BNT had be riding around flapping my elbows like a chicken, although to much smaller extend, and she wanted me to keep my wrist and hands still.......try that one, it's not an easy task at all! But it does work to loosen not only the elbows but also the shoulders __________________ Pay equal (if not more) attention to your own self carriage as that of your horse

09-05-2008, 07:00 PM	#26
Kissitgoodbye Senior Member+ Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 7,892 Images: 71 Blog Entries: 4	Its not the seat that should be helping/steadying the hand it should be your shoulders, and your lower back. But put all those things aside what it really boils down to is balance. Does the rider have the balance to sit equally on both seat bones? Does the rider have the fundamentals to repositions itself. If not, how do you teach that. Look where your horse wants to go little trick comes into play I think so. And what does that little trick make our bodies automatically do? Shift our weight. Its teaching the kids/students to knowing the resources of creating a balanced seat. And balanced hands and yada yada. __________________ i am only one; but still i am one. i cannot do everything, but still i can do something; i will not refuse to do the something i can do

09-05-2008, 09:56 PM	#27
royalrox Senior Member+ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Chester Springs, PA Posts: 3,388 Images: 286	I put them on a lunge with no reins to start, simply to get them independent of their hands. I have them do all kinds of odd positions to keep them busy Then to actually learn the concept....I make it very technical, I find they understand it much easier if its described that way. What I tell them basically lol is at the trot when they go up their elbows should straighten, when they sit they should bend. At the canter when the horses head goes down they straighten when it comes up they bend. Obviously that's just VERY basic and simplistic but it helps them get the idea in the beginning __________________ You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows The present now will later be past, And the first one now will later be last -Bob Dylan Proud member of the thoroughbred club!

09-05-2008, 10:19 PM	#28
StockHorseGirl Senior Member+ Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Northeastern AL Posts: 741 Images: 63	A lady that I took some lessons with told me something to help me with my arms that has stuck in my mind. She said, to keep your arms moving with the horse think of them like the pistons of a train. This is of course more true to the walk and canter then the trot but even at the trot it reminds me. __________________ Lawren Horses are living proof that God loves us.

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09-06-2008, 09:05 AM	#30
MIEventer Senior Member+ Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,254	hope I can stay on track. What a fabulous thread to start! How many riders do we look at, in photographs, in shows, riding at the barn - who ride with to low of hands, stiff, locked, holding, forcing instead of carried hands, soft, supple, giving and supporting? Far too many. Because riders are not being taught properly how to have effective aids, to have independant aids and supportive/encouraging aids. How many to we see with horses on the muscle? Horses heavy on the fore? Horses mouths who would be gaped open if it weren't for the flash being used on them? More than we should. If only these riders are being taught what your students are being taught Kimberly. Riders are not being taught to carry their hands. They are not being taught to leave their horses faces alone, not being taught to ride from back to front and not being taught that the horse SEARCHES for the contact, not being pulled into contact. I have to say my hands are my downfall. I am either too stiff or too soft. I will start out with a good length in my rein, my fingers closed, hands carried and then I'll realize I am stiff and locked - so I relax. Then I discover my reins are now too long because when I relaxed, my fingers opened. I was never taught proper hands until my last 2 coaches. Who are - believe it or not - Hunter/Jumpers who competed A Circuit. It also took an R Rated Dressage Judge from New York to point it out to me, when I got the priveledge to have a 1 on 1 with her at the show. I had my score sheets in hand and we went through them together. What my coaches have done with and are doing with me to learn Independant Aids and Supportive Aids with my hands - Proper Hand Placement when riding first and foremost. Carry them where they need to be. NOT near the neck, not near or on the withers, not spread apart and not in my lap. But carried. The moment I allow my hands to drop, I stiffen up and hold instead of being soft and supportive - Lunge Line Work without Reins. WOW you really do find your seat, you really do find your legs and your upper body - and guess what...when you find your seat you find you core! How often do we see riders with a forward upper body and a closed hip angle while on the flat??? Too many! How many do we see riding on their 3 points and not on their crotch? Not enough. The moment you sit up tall and start using your seat bones....your core says HELLO I AM HERE lol. I have left a lesson after working on the Lunge Line without Reins - with a sore tummy because my muscles were really worked. Without your core, you have nothing. As JBandRio said - your core is the center of everything. The most important factor to riding. - Thumb placement - believe it or not, this has really helped me! I used to ride with my thumbs directly up, which yes, that is how it should be - but my coach had me rotate my thumbs inwards just a tad, which softened me up. I also believe that it takes a rider to feel it and experience it for themselves to understand the difference between soft, supportive hands/elbows from stiff, low, locked, holding hands/elbows. I believe that there are quite a few riders out there on under developed horses who cannot carry themselves, and on greener horses who cannot aid the rider.........let me rephrase that. I believe younger riders, riders who are growing and learning need to be on horses above them in abillity, training and education - so that these riders can learn to use themselves properly and learn to have independant aids. Being on these horses can benefit the rider in many, many ways. Instead we find many younger riders, riders with holes in their training - on horses who are greener, greenies, or same level as the rider where they are not aiding, helping the rider. Does that make sense? I would rather have a younger rider, riders who are beginning, riders who are not at the point of understanding independant, soft, supporting aids - to be on horses who are School Masters/Been There Done That mounts so that they can focus on themselves first before worrying about other things. So that they can learn the importancies of Softness, Supportive, Giving, Taking, Lifting, Encouraging aids and the most important - independant. Just a though I think posters have given FABULOUS tips and advice on how to achieve this goal.