[cornhuskergirl]

Thank you so much, Alliekk. I just read through everything that you posted and I think that you are absolutely spot on with the comments. The training is just a mish-mash of different signals and of course, as a baby she has not a prayer of understanding what is being asked for her by these "big" men.

The actions that they are taking with her are only exacerbating the problems. With each passing day, she is becoming more head shy and she gets punished for being head shy, which just worsens the cycle.

It is so hard for me to watch the video with an unbiased eye, since not only are my opinions on the filly mixed into the equation, but so are my personal feelings toward the "trainer" (which are NOT positive) and my frustration with my husband over being so pig-headed.

On the third viewing, I am also shocked at the use of the poll to get desired behavior out of her. I actually just woke my hubby up to ask him about this and he said that the "trainer" told him to do this since it is a spot "that will let you control her when she is acting out." I told him in no uncertain terms that it is pain point and how would he like it if someone did that to him. He was absolutely shocked that it was a pain point and seems distraught about that. I don't think we will have to worry about the poll usage again ... I also asked him about him shoving his hand into the breast bone to get a response. And again, he told me that this was per trainer's recommendations.

I am not defending my husband, I don't like a lot of what I saw in the video. And I don't believe that ignorance is an excuse but it is the "trainer" who truly upsets me . Not only is he doing the wrong thing, but he is preaching this approach to a "susceptible" audience.

I've begged him to look at all of the horses -- not just Vika -- when he goes out there tomorrow or the next day and try to assess their happiness level. Most of them seem unhappy or at least unhappy when the "trainer" is handling them.

For the first time, I saw at least a spark that he agrees with me or that he is at least mulling the situation over.

In terms of your comment about the pain/discomfort issue, I think that it is an incredibly astute observation. If I work up my courage (truthfully, she is the only horse I have ever been afraid of my whole life), I will try and groom her tomorrow and see if I notice this with a much lighter touch!

All I can say is WOW! Thank you for watching the video and for your comments ...

[cornhuskergirl]

Oh and when the vet comes out on Tuesday, we will definitely ask him about the back issue and get a good recommendation for a chiro who can come out ASAP. I just watched a snippet of another video from today when she was walking up the driveway away from me and I saw her from behind. When I saw her in person today, I thought it was probably from yesterday's hoof trim and she does seem to have thin soles and always is a little bit sensitive post-trim. But, now it does seem to be more up in the back!

[Alliekk]

I am so happy that you read through and followed along I know it was a novel, but I hoped to also incorporate HER body language in so that you and hubby can both understand at least a tid bit of what she's trying to tell you. She's a frightened and frustrated baby. She needs guidance, not intimidation and smacks on the nose. How many horses have you ever met have actually persisted in trying to bite/kick ''just because,'' especially a baby. It is a learned habit. Don't react to the problem, go to the source. Take Ted Bundy for instance. You can lock up as many brainwashed idiots as you like, but they're still going to keep coming until the source (Ted) is caught.

[gluey33]

Alliekk has given you a good summary. i'd just like to add that while I'm a fan of rope halters that one IMO is a bad fit. A smaller one may work better.

[jedy]

I'm not all trhat knowledgable, we don't use rope halters and cross ties, but my observations are exactly same! My god, if my child teased the horse like the trainer with slapping the nose, he'd be in big trouble! That's exactly what it is-teasing!
You're hubby's body language isn't clear; it's too mellow when it should be short and firm, and too harsh when he shouldn't respond at all. Learning from better trainer should help him immensly with that. From my point of view it would benefit them both to really focus on getting the job done, not figdeting so much, brushing means brushing, walking means walking, it helps the handler to be down to the point and the horse to understand.

[cornhuskergirl]

Again, thank you all for your wonderful comments. Session #2 is coming up tomorrow afternoon (Saturday), so we will see how long I can keep my promise to be quiet. And we will also see if hubby truly took to heart what everyone had to say ...

Like I told him this whole training program does not seem to have a purpose. It is Parelli (with all the associated Parelli "crud") and then when people get frustrated she gets rapped on the nose.

I will report back on the next session tomorrow evening.

[cornhuskergirl]

Unfortunately, I was not able to take any video yesterday but I am :flam ing:!!! I arrived late to the start of the "session" since I was out playing with my yearling at another stable. And when I got there, my husband had the filly in cross-ties and was just getting ready to pick her feet. The front feet went well and then he went to the left rear and she struggled a little bit. Which she tends to be 50-50 on how she does hooves. My husband got a small rock out of the left side of the hoof and then she began to struggle desperately to get her foot down. The BO who saw this decided to rope her foot to get her to pick it up and she fought even harder. Now, I am not against using a rope to teach hoof pick up. But, if I was doing this it would be in a round pen or the arena. Not in a cross-tie stall with a back wood wall less than a foot away from her rear hoof. Naturally she proceeded to kick the ever-loving crud out of the back wall. Thank god, her leg looks clean today and not cut up at all. But, is it just me how thinks that using the rope trick in this type of situation is a HORRIBLE idea

[Alliekk]

So none of what we said sunk in? Have you tried to have a chat with the trainer? Was the hoof escapade the only lesson she had that day, or was it a mishmash like the other times?

[cornhuskergirl]

It definitely all sunk in to me!!! And I think that it sunk in to my husband at least to a certain degree. But, he now says that he was terrified to speak up and disagree with what the trainer was doing with the hooves, since the BO is older and more experienced with horses. Although he said that he was scared about it the whole time (that the filly was going to hurt herself kicking out) ... And to give him (hubby) some credit, he did try and tell the trainer that he was worried about a stone bruise in the hoof. But, it was like the BO refused to listen ...

However, today when the situation went to repeat itself. I was very (!!!) proud of my hubby and he refused to have the rope used in the cross-tie stall.

Supposedly, there was a mishmash of things that happened in the early part of the session before I arrived. But a lot of it was just working on stopping at the right time.

I have tried to talk to the BO several times, but I always end up feeling belittled, as if my statements have not made any difference.

[IIIBarsV]

I have some harsh opinions here... but I'm not angry with you.

This filly seems to have normal, typical, 2 yr old behavior.

Your husband seems to have normal, typical, "I Know Nothing About Horses or their behavior" behavior. This is indicated by the fact that he is grabbing at her face very quickly and sticking himself directly in the line of fire, trying to correct something that the filly hasn't even DONE yet. So she shifts a hoof, or walks around a bit, or grabs the crosstie. NOT A BIG DEAL. Grabbing at her face is only going to encourage her to try and play.

She is a mouthy, bored-out-of-her-mind, confused and frustrated, little kid. She doesn't know what she has to do to get attention, because nobody is communicating that in a way she can understand.

Trainer seems to think he knows something... but as soon as he smacked her in the nose in the third video, after clearly encouraging her to reach out and nibble/play, I went "No way, buddy..."

This is not a situation that can be easily remedied. Vika is just responding like a normal young horse who is smart, active, and wants to "DO" stuff. She looks quite happy actually, when she's interacting with humans... her facial expression is smart-alecky, but certainly not vicious or evil. lol I don't see *anything* that says "Mean, nasty horse".

She is pushy, yes- she has everybody's number and she knows it. Your husband shying away from her and being so "jumpy" and nervous is just letting her that she is definitely the boss mare. She is not moving away from the pressure because she is not being asked respectfully, and she knows if she stands there, the annoying person will just go away and leave her alone.

Her aggressive behavior comes from two definite sources- frustration, and play drive. Frustration because there is nothing "clear" and easy for her understand. Body language, pressures, requests- they're blabbing in Japanese at somebody who speaks in Sign Language. They are misreading her completely, mistaking her words for different words. Play drive is typical in a young horse. They are mouthy because taste and putting stuff in their mouth is a way of exploring the world. She's also testing constantly, and her stress shows up as mouthy behavior (kinda like someone who chews gum to relax). Her attempted nips were attempts at communicating "let's play, friend who I like to boss around!" to your hubby- or to any human in nibbling distance.

You have a few options here.

1) Sell filly to someone who has raised and trained plenty of young horses. Buy hubby that 8 yr old well-broke dead-quiet gelding that loves everybody with no behavioral issues. Get him riding/handling lessons. ANY horse would see that "jump" and go "Heeeeeey... somebody's a chicken...", and even the best quietest sweetest horses will start to take advantage of that.

2) Locate another trainer, one who knows how to read horse behavior and communicate a he|| of a lot better than this guy. Get hubby lessons, strictly supervised by new trainer. Spend a couple years learning how to communicate with filly, while filly is being trained. This is time consuming and requires a lot of effort (mental and financial) on your parts.

3) Keep the filly, get current trainer to do more hands-on supervised handling lessons, and tell him to NEVER hit her or bop her in the face ever again. If he does not respect that request, I guess he doesn't get to handle the filly anymore. Be aware, if she's already progressed to this level with the current situation, it'll probably get worse before it gets better. Vika is growing and the bigger she gets, the less likely she is going to put up with being treated disrespectfully, or with being frustrated by humans who are speaking Japanese and not "Horse".

This is my opinion, but I think #1 would be the best solution.... IF you can find a good buyer. Hubby is clearly not ready to have a young horse, period, behavioral issues or not. Maybe he'll be P'O'd if he reads this, but the handling skills and knowledge of horse behavior and communication is just not there. Vika is being done a huge disadvantage, since if you guys keep her and her behavior worsens because of incorrect handling, misunderstanding, etc, then you risk:

- Getting yourselves hurt.
- Getting other people hurt.
- Getting Vika hurt.
- Never being able to sell her if you want to find a more suitable horse. People steer clear of young horses enough as it is... but throw a behavioral issue in there, and only hardcore people would be willing to spend something on getting her and rehabbing her. Unfortunately, hardcore people are pretty rare.

This is also a benefit to trying to get her moved on to a more suitable home now, rather than a year from now after she's broken somebody's leg or something...

Oh, and buy her a different rope halter. That one is too big, which is why the knots were sliding up and getting her in the eye- also making them completely ineffective for handling her. She needs one of those thin-rope yearling/cob-sized rope halters, in order for the pressure points to have any affect.