[Equineomite]

Wow, Sue B! Thank you so much for such a thorough and detailed explanation. Your post definitely helped clear up my confusion. I think if I read it three more times, the smell of ozone I detect coming from my brain may dissipate.

Okay, I hope this doesn't take this thread too far off topic, but in another post here, I was asking about diet for my hypothyroid 22 year old mare and I was told that her low thyroid could be a result of Cushings. I plan to have the vet out to check for that. My question is about something Ryle said in the other thread:

Originally Posted by Ryle

Getting her on an appropriate diet is also very important since Cushing's disease usually comes along with hypothyroidism and insulin resistance.
You need to cut out sweet feeds and grains, as well as limiting grazing and soaking your hay to help eliminate non-structural carbs that the body readily converts to sugars. You can contact the feed dealers who supply your local feed store to find out what feeds they make that are low in non-structural carbs yet still help balance out the diet and meet the nutritional requirements for your horse--the big feed companies have nutritionists on staff that can help you. If you use Purina feeds, Equine Senior and Strategy have both been used to feed Cushing's horses. Supplement with fats (corn oil, etc) to help increase the caloric density of the diet. So basically you are going for low non-structural carbs, high fiber and higher fat in the diet.

Strategy and Senior Equine were suggested, but would a ration balancer be a good alternative? Do the ration balancers, being forage (or rather fiber) based contain less "non structural carbs"? Would BOSS or rice bran be good, or are they also easily converted to sugars? I'm thinking no they are not, but I'm new to this in-depth nutrition talk.

High fiber and high fat sounds like it's describing a ration balancer/BOSS type diet, but the only thing that makes me wonder is that they also say she should be limited on grazing and have her hay soaked, and if ration balancers are "forage based", are they similar to grazing? I think what you said about them being based more on beet pulp, soy hulls, distillers grains, rice bran and other fiber-based things means no, it's not like grazing type forage.

[wyldterv]

Originally Posted by Equineomite

Strategy and Senior Equine were suggested, but would a ration balancer be a good alternative? Do the ration balancers, being forage (or rather fiber) based contain a less "non structural carbs"?

Actually both Strat and Purina Equine Senior are NOT LOW NCS feeds. You're more in line with the idea of going for a good Ration Balancer and perhaps Alfalfa pellets and/or Beat Pulp with some BOSS or Rice Bran for extra calories if even needed. FLAX Seed/Meal or oil would also be a good fat source.

Would BOSS or rice bran be good, or are they also easily converted to sugars? I'm thinking no they are not, but I'm new to this in-depth nutrition talk.

High fiber and high fat sounds like it's describing a ration balancer/BOSS type diet, but the only thing that makes me wonder is that they also say she should be limited on grazing and have her hay soaked, and if ration balancers are "forage based", are they similar to grazing? I think what you said about them being based more on beet pulp, soy hulls, distillers grains, rice bran and other fiber-based things means no, it's not like grazing type forage.

No ration balancers are NOT the similar to grazing, nor are they a forage/fiber substitue. Beat Pulp would be a forage/fiber substitue, Alfalfa CUBES are considered a Forage/Fiber Substitue, Alfalfa Pellets are Forage BASED but not a Forage/Fiber substitute... Totally confusing yet???

[Sue B]

I totally disagree with anyone that suggests that just because your horse has hypothyroidism, it might also have Cushings. I've been dealing with metabolic disorders for about 8 years now and IMO, too much stock is put into lumping all sorts of metabolic disorders together...especially in lumping them under "Cushings. Cushings can be related to the other disorders, but it is a disease in itself and while the hormaonal imbalances that come with Cushings can, and often do, result in insulin resistance and/or thyroid dysfunction....those things can happen without Cushings and can happen separately. I would certainly not be jumping to any conclusions about Cushings unless there were other symptoms such as a non-shedding coat...and even then, that can be a symptoms of magnesium deficiency.

As for the feeding advise of Purina Stategy/Equine Senior...I would not redommend either of those. They are both far too high in NSC for a horse with carb intolerances such as those see in metabolic horses. And, with that said, not all metabolic horses are alike...some test normal and yet are carb intolerant...others test for Cusings and never develope carb intolerances. Each case has to be treated as an individual, and without test results and a better understanding of what exactly is wrong with your horse, I would not go crazy soaking hay or limiting grazing.

In many cases, the change to a low carb feed like a ration balancer or Triple Crown Lite works to benefit the horse. Many times, all that is worn is a magnesium, iodine and/or selenium deficiency. Once addressed, the body returns to normal function. There are just too many things that could be wrong and easily not be a "true" metabolic disorder.

As for the ration balancer being a "forage" replacer...Wyldterv said it. Forage replacers must have long-stem fiber in them. That is, they cannot be processed to the point that they can be put in a pellet. Beet pulp shreds and forage cubes are long-stem fiber...pelleted forms of forages are not. Additionally, there is much more nutritionally that is obtained from grass that will be missing from your horse's diet if it has limited or no grazing. Four most important things will be: chlorophyll (not listed as an RDA and not yet recognized in horse nutrition), amino acids, omega-3 fatty acids and probiotics that replenish/maintain the colonies of beneficial gut bacteria. To cover the bases on these things, it is generally recommended that you feed flaxseed (another debate unto itself), a source of kelp (Source or other similar products or just plain kelp...some ration balancers have kelp in it), and BOSS, rice bran or a ration balancer with good amounts of amino acids.

It is also debatable as to the benefits of feeding high amoutns of fat to metabolic horses. While BOSS and rice bran are acceptable sources of fat for metabolic caes...and also provide other important needed nutrients...feeding oil is not recommended...although I don't think you were going there. While the research is limited, there are currently some indications that feeding fat (in the form of oils) to horses prone to metabolic disorders might result in the onset of insulin resistance.

Glucosamine is another issue that is often overlooked in metabolic cases. Since many metabolic cases are older horses, it isn't unusual for them to be on joint supplements. Glucosamine has also been shown in other species to be a contributing factor in the onset of IR. To support these suspicions in horses, many researchers have found that remoing joint supplements from chronic laminitic horses stops the laminitis. In truth, most cases of arthritis benefit greatly...as much or sometimes more so than commercial products...with flaxseed supplementation...and in more severe cases, the addition of MSM helps.

Please read www.safergrass.org for more info on IR, hay soaking and nutritional needs of metabolic horses.

[IheartDuke]

So, I gotta bring it up, (1) Ground flaxseed versus whole?
I am so glad that I stumbled on this thread, cause i just ran out of nutrena senior grain and was going to pick up some more tomorrow, but I think I will go with a RB instead!
(2) Any certain brands more favorable for my 23 year old 850 lb morgan? (3) Would it be ok for my 11 year old 950 lb Morgan as well?
They both get approx 10 lbs hay per day (unfortunately quality is all over the board at my stables.) I also give the grand complete joint/ hoof/ coat supplement, approx 1 cup boss, and 1/2 -1 cup ground flax seed. (4) Any adjustments needed here in serving size? (5) Should I add anything else...alfalfa, rice bran....?

[Sue B]

Originally Posted by IheartDuke

So, I gotta bring it up, (1) Ground flaxseed versus whole?

No, there is not difference except that once you break the hulls of any seed, loss of nutients begins immediately...expeically in vitamins. However, if you are feeding stabilized/preground seed and not grinding it yourself, then there is less loss of nutrients. Recent research indicates that even if you find whole seeds in the manure that the vast majority of the nutrients have been "sucked" out of them....so you are still probably getting more out of whole seeds than ground or stabilized preground.

(2) Any certain brands more favorable for my 23 year old 850 lb morgan?

Looking at ingredient lists and knowing other products from the companies and not based on experience....of the list that is in the first 2-3 posts on the top of this thread, I would select all of them over Purina's Born to Win. While BtW is one of Purina's better products and works well for many people, the others offer a better overall nutrient package. In general, most of the companies that I listed are superior in their other products.

(3) Would it be ok for my 11 year old 950 lb Morgan as well?

Yes, Morgans are one of the beeds (especially old style) that are prone to developing metabolic disorders...therefore, regardless of age, they would benefit from feeding a ration balancer. I use it on all ages...from weanlings to seniors. I have found that not all horses do as well as others, but certainly any "normal" to "easy keepers" benefit greatly. Even many harder keepers simply need added fat such as BOSS or rice bran to maintain a nice weight. From my experience, the vast majority of weight issues are a result, not of too many/few calories, but of improper nutrition and a lack of proper eating of long-stem fiber (hay/grass). Once they get proper nutrition, their weight normalizes and it becomes much easier to keep it that way.

They both get approx 10 lbs hay per day (unfortunately quality is all over the board at my stables.) I also give the grand complete joint/ hoof/ coat supplement, approx 1 cup boss, and 1/2 -1 cup ground flax seed. (4) Any adjustments needed here in serving size?

Yes, I would highly recommend that hay amounts be increased. In general, 2% of body weight is recommended. Since there will be a decrease in calories from your previous feeding program, an increase in forage calories will most likely be necessary. If, however, there are limitations in your boarding situation, then you could supplement with beet pulp or forage cubes or a combination of either of those and forage pellets. You may also want to increase the BOSS...unless you dealing with really easy keepers. In general, it is recommended that you feed 2-3x (in volume) BOSS to flax in order to balance the omega-6 and 3 fatty acids. With this type of feeding program, generally, no other suppplementation (hoof, skin/coat, or joint) is necessary. amino acids and omega-3s from the flax are generall al that is needed to provide optimal skin/coat and hoof quality. Flax is an anti-inflammatory and generally is far better than using other types of joint supplements....especially on the stomach. While there are not many, it is not rare to hear of reports of humans that suffer stomach issues when taking joint supplements...we don't really have any way of telling if it is the case in horses, but I am guessing that it can be. In more severe cases, where flax doesn't work by itself, the addition of MSM seems to work well.

(5) Should I add anything else...alfalfa, rice bran....?

While it isn't a "necessity", many older and horses in general, benefit from added rice bran. In older horses it helps keep lesser and non-working horses in better muscle tone. In all horses it is beneficial for the added nutrients.

[CrazyHorse]

Wow Sue B, you sure are helpful with this! Actually I'm glad this subject was brought up again & my question is this; Since Ben (7 year old Mustang gelding approx. 15 hands & 1000# give or take 100#) is on virtually no pasture & I have made the decision to switch him over to a ration balancer (Born To Win), would it be better to give him a cup of BOSS per day or 5lbs. of alfalfa cubes per day to supplement his hay? He gets 12-15# of hay per day right now & 8 lbs. of a pelleted complete feed per day right now. When we can get our hands on round bales I won't be worried so much about him not getting enough long-stemmed forage. I can't get Triple Crown or Buckeye feeds here so BTW is the only choice I have available to me.
Sorry if I hijacked the thread, but this is so interesting to me, lol!

[Sue B]

As long as he is getting a minimum of 1% of his body weight in long-stem fiber, then there is no need to supplement cubes. You would probably be better off with BOSS for a mustang....espcially a young one in his prime like Ben. His system would be more tuned to the nutrition provided by the seeds than that provided by alfalfa.

[CrazyHorse]

Originally Posted by Sue B

As long as he is getting a minimum of 1% of his body weight in long-stem fiber, then there is no need to supplement cubes. You would probably be better off with BOSS for a mustang....espcially a young one in his prime like Ben. His system would be more tuned to the nutrition provided by the seeds than that provided by alfalfa.

Okay thanks! Sounds good to me!

[IheartDuke]

Thanks for all of the great info on this , I actually went out and got m y bag of LMF Super Supplement the other day! (Which by the way, there are 2 different SS one to be fed with Alfalfa hay and another to be fed with Grass hay!...ughhh!) I think Duke and Buddy love it...it sure smells great...(I am tempted to try a nibble...LOL )!

However, I don't want to take over this thread...so i will start my own...see Ration Balancers for Morgans....

[wyldterv]

I LOVE the LMF SS... IT is what Mustang Poncho gets (G formula) with 1/4 a lb of the LMF GOLD (very high fat components, performance food) for coat shine .

Emmerson and Elle both get the LMS SS G as well with 3 lbs of the Gold for the fats and some extra protein along with alfalfa pellets and 14-16 hours of grazing in the spring summer, free choice hay in the fall/winter months(easier then buying the BOSS/Flax/Ricebran I was mixing on my own and cheaper too!) and Dancer gets 6 lbs of the LMF Gold as she's my 'harder keeper' but she works very hard as well!

I have been feeding the SS for the past 3 yrs and have been really happy with it.