[janelle12]

wow, great thread, thanks imacowgirl for bumping it. Im back into horses after a 14 year hiatus and this is ALL new to me!

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by ryu2832

She didn't think it was possible to get the finish on horses without grain.

Yep, this is a problem that is widespread - vets are taught (mostly by feed reps) that horses need grain to survive. And this is why the vast majority of owners think the horse needs grain.

Tell your vet that this is a no-grain horse. He was NOT bathed, NOT Showsheen'd, just the top dirt brushed off

[janelle12]

Its pictures like that that make me want to find out what youre feeding and just copy the regimen exactly (ya I know its not that simple)! What a nice looking horse.

[JBandRio]

Thanks janelle At that time (this was 5 years ago) he was getting Dynamite vitamins and about 2c alfalfa pellets, in addition to free choice grass (wasn't a LOT in that pasture) and/or grass hay. Obviously, he's an easy keeper, so he did not require a lot of concentrates (of whatever form).

THIS is the harder keeper:


At that time she was getting 6lb alfalfa pellets and Dynamite vitamins. Since then, to put more weight on her, I've added BOSS and rice bran.

[Heavenly Jumper]

Does what I feed, Triple Crown Complete, belong on this list?

Triple Crown Nutrition - Complete

[wyldterv]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyJumper

Does what I feed, Triple Crown Complete, belong on this list?

Triple Crown Nutrition - Complete

Nope That is a COMPLETE food which means that is has a forage substitute built into it. It is not a BAD food mind you, but a Ration Balancer is basically a nutrient dense balance of vites/mins/and amino acids So you feed it in lieu of fortified grains(such as this COMPLETE FOOD) for a horse that is an easy keeper and does not NEED any added concentrates or WITH unfortified grains like whole oats, OR with no-grain feeding programs such as alfalfa pellets, BOSS/Rice Bran, etc. It is a more concentrated, generally more balanced in amino acids then your typical vit/min supplement

[Jess!]

I'm liking the looks of the Triple Crown. Would this be good for Tank? She's a tank, doesn't need much, but all she gets is alfalfa right now.

Can I feed it along with the BOSS and flax?

[Equineomite]

Originally Posted by wyldterv

a Ration Balancer is basically a nutrient dense balance of vites/mins/and amino acids So you feed it in lieu of fortified grains(such as this COMPLETE FOOD) for a horse that is an easy keeper and does not NEED any added concentrates or WITH unfortified grains like whole oats, OR with no-grain feeding programs such as alfalfa pellets, BOSS/Rice Bran, etc. It is a more concentrated, generally more balanced in amino acids then your typical vit/min supplement

Okay, you lost me there a little. First, what are added concentrates? Examples? It kinda sounds like you're saying unfortified grains/whole oats are added concentrates, but I suspect that's not what you meant.

How would one use alfalfa pellets with a ration balancer? Are alfalfa pellets used in place of alfalfa hay? What do they provide that the hay wouldn't?

So a ration balancer is "more concentrated and more balanced in amino acids than your typical vit/min supplement" but is it actually a (different) type of vit/min supplement? I think I've read that it's a "forage based product." Does that just mean that instead of having a main ingredient of grains (such as oats, corn or whatever regular fortified feeds are based on) it has a main ingredient of grassy products like alfalfa, timothy or other hay type products? That's my understanding of "forage based" but I could be totally wrong.

What is supposed to be the big advantage of going with a ration balancer vs a fortified grain product like Safe Choice or Senior Equine?

I'm definitely considering switching to a ration balancer with BOSS or rice bran but I want to make sure I understand the reasons for switching before I do so.

[Sue B]

Originally Posted by Equineomite

Okay, you lost me there a little. First, what are added concentrates? Examples? It kinda sounds like you're saying unfortified grains/whole oats are added concentrates, but I suspect that's not what you meant.

Concentrates are any feed that is added to a hay/pasture diet that contain "concentrated" amounts of calories. IOW...they are not the same in calories that hay/pasture is. In order to achieve this, generally, it has to be a grain-based feed of some sort (whole grains, pelleted, extruded or textured/loose feeds). However, there are now "no-grain" concentrates that do not fall into the standard realm of things. These generally have higher amounts of fat in them to help get the calories up.

How would one use alfalfa pellets with a ration balancer? Are alfalfa pellets used in place of alfalfa hay? What do they provide that the hay wouldn't?

Alfalfa pellets or cubes can be used in place of alfalfa hay (if it is only a portion of the total diet). Alfalfa (or any fiber source) that is in this type of format, provides a source of easily digestible fiber, thus making it easier for the horse to get more nutrients from the product. Additionally, alfalfa is approx. 1000 calories/lb as opposed to grass hays which are approx. 800...thus it adds more calories to the diet. Calories from fiber (as opposed to grains or feeds with molasses/grains) are safer and help maintain gut health. By safer, I mean that they are not something that will generally result in colic, digestive upset or laminitis (as grains might).

So a ration balancer is "more concentrated and more balanced in amino acids than your typical vit/min supplement" but is it actually a (different) type of vit/min supplement? I think I've read that it's a "forage based product." Does that just mean that instead of having a main ingredient of grains (such as oats, corn or whatever regular fortified feeds are based on) it has a main ingredient of grassy products like alfalfa, timothy or other hay type products? That's my understanding of "forage based" but I could be totally wrong.

While hays and things that we commonly regard as "forages" have been the base for forage-based products in the past, this is no longer true. There are now a whole new line of products (offered by most companies) that contain alternative (and more nutrient dense) forms of forages. These "forages" include: beet pulp, soy hulls, distillers grains, rice bran and other fiber-based things. So you don't get confused by the word "grain"....distillers grains are grains that were used in distilling processes in which all the sugars and starches...but not other nutrients....were removed. The end product is a high fiber (digested as forage) product that is very nutrient dense. It probably would be more correct to refer to these feeds as fiber, rather than forage, based.

Ration balancers are somewhere between a feed and a vit/min mix. They are more nutrient dense then the common feed, thus designed to be fed at 1-2 lbs/day as opposed to the more common recommendations of 5-8 lbs of grain-based feeds. If you are feeding a traditional type of grain-based feed at a lower rate than is recommended on the bag, you are not getting the nutrition that is promised on the bag. With a ration balancer, feeding small amounts is not an issue. In addition, ration balancers generally provide some calories...usually in the 1300/lb range. That is similar to a typical sweet feed, but not significant when fed at 1-2 lbs/day. When assessing calories in a feeding program, one also has to be concerned where they come from. In grain-based feeds, calories typically come from starches and sugars (from added molasses). In non-grain based feeds, typically calories come from highly digestible fiber sources such as soy hulls, beet pulp and rice bran. Some also now include BOSS and flax. Typical vit/min supplements only provide a mix of vit/min...they do not include amino acids, protein and are often still lacking in some vit/min. Many times, it is also the sources of vit/min that becomes a concern. For example, rather than plant sources, they may contain synthetic nutrients that are not as readily used by the body...and in some cases (like vit A) they can actually build up over time in the body to toxic levels. Ration balancers typically rely more heavily on plant sources of nutrients rather than added synthetics.

What is supposed to be the big advantage of going with a ration balancer vs a fortified grain product like Safe Choice or Senior Equine?

Basically, I already covered that...but for futher clarificaiton...
Grain-based products contain starches and sugars that are not really "safe" for horses. That is, they have a very small area of the digestive tract in which they (specifically, starches from grains) can be safely broken down and utilized. If they are not fed in very small amounts, there isn't time to properly digest them before they are passed on into the hindgut. In the hindgut, starches and some sugars, can become a health issue when they are digested through fermentation. In the foregut where they are supposed to be broken down, enzymes and certain bacteria are utilized for the task. It is done at a rapid rate compared to other aspects of the digestive process. However, the hindgut is designed to utilize numerous fermentation bacteria to slowly break down and utilize nutrients. This process is designed to primarily work on fibers/forages. When it is utilized on starches and some sugars, the gut pH becomes acidic. This in turn begins to cause digestive upset...which can lead to colic or diarrhea. In more severe cases, it kills off the beneficial gut bacterial, leaving an imbalance that results in chronic digestive upset. It can also, as a result of endotoxins released during the die-off, result in laminitis.

While some of the new feeds on the market such as Safe Choice are addressing some of these issues...they are still missing the ticket because they contain grains. Horses simply were not designed to be maintained on grains. Grain feeding traditionally was designed to feed vast numbers of horses on the march during wartime...where it was impossible to carry enough forage to sustain them. Later use included feeding grain to hard working horses such as drafts doing farm work or hauling freight wagons or coaches. However, today's horses rarely, if ever, work that hard. And, even though grain-based diets or supplementation were considered a necessity in those cases, it was never based on an understanding of what horses were designed to eat...simply on an understanding of meeting human needs.

I'm definitely considering switching to a ration balancer with BOSS or rice bran but I want to make sure I understand the reasons for switching before I do so.

I hope I filled in the details for you...if I missed something...just ask.

[wyldterv]

What SueB Said, LOLOL....