[IheartDuke]

Ok... I just think I begin to understand one aspect of equine nutrition, then 7000 other questions come to my mind! So here it goes! After reading the recent posts on RB's, I decided that this would be a good addition to my boy's diet rather than grain. My reasoning included that they are not given any other mineral/ vitamin supplements and quite often, the hay provided by the BO at the stables can widely fluctuate in quality. They are each fed 1-1.5 flakes of grass/ mixture? hay twice per day. In addition, I give them their "special mix"(see ingredients below) 1 time per day.

I just started Duke (23.5 year old 850 pound ¾ Morgan Old World Style.. ¼ Arab) see other threads/ post regarding his big past Hx of back problems (had a fractured spineous process!) improper shoeing/ trimming, poor immune system…swollen sheath…) and Buddy (10-11 year old 950 pound ¾ Morgan New World Style? (definitely more thick and stocky compared to Duke!) ¼ quarter horse)
On a ration balancer LMF Super Supplement (SS) a few days ago. I was putting a couple handfuls in since I did not have a scale and wanted to start with small portions since it is a new addition to their diet. Well, I could not understand why the label made such a stink out of Selenium.
The label reads: Feeding added levels of Selenium in excess of .3ppm in total diet is prohibited. Why? What is Selenium? Why is it prohibited; what can it cause? What are the symptoms of overdose? Is it found in black oil sunflower seeds (BOSS), rice bran, ground flax seed, shredded beet pulp (unpasturized)? According to the dictionary, Selenium is this: “a nonmetallic chemical element whose power to conduct electricity varies with the brightness of light. Often used in photoelectric devices.”

Also, the label indicates that SS is to be fed along with forage consisting of 50% or more alfalfa and along with free choice iodized salt.
Pounds to feed daily per 100 pounds body weight for easy keeper maintainence

LMF SS: .1 along with 50% or more Alfalfa Hay: 1.0 to 1.3

For the longest time reading the label over and over and then finally consulting the LMF website, I realized that there are 2 different SS: SS A to be fed with Alfalfa Hay and SS G to be fed with Grass Hay! Well, apparently the feed store was not aware of the 2 types, so now I have SS A for them! They are fed Grass/ mixture hay twice daily, not alfalfa. However, I do have some All in One (alfalfa, molassesd, and sumthin else) available, but am a bit hesitant to feed them alfalfa cause they might get too hyper! Is there something else that can be feed besides alfalfa? Is it recommended because of the fiber?

I also picked up some rice bran, black oil ss, dried shredded beet pulp to mix in as well! How much of what should I be putting in a daily feeding? I also give them ½ to 1 cup ground flax seed with antioxidants (Omegafields.com) IT HAS SELENIUM!!!!UGHH! and 2 scoops Grand Complete (GC)…(supplement by Grand Meadows—no Selenium; I checked the GC label!) Duke also gets 100-150 of Hyaluronic Acid (powder form Hylamotion) .


(I Cut/ paste from Omega Fields website for nutrition info:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::



Omega Antioxidant is a truly comprehensive human-grade supplement to support your horses' daily requirements for Omega-3 and a blend of six all-natural antioxidants.
Omega Antioxidant is not just a clever name -- it empowers your horses with the health and longevity advantages of stabilized Omega-3 essential fatty acids and powerful natural antioxidants.

For your horses when they need:

• Smooth skin texture with added luster (beautiful bloom) to the coat, with earlier shedding
• Strong, thick-walled hooves (restores cracked, brittle, thin-walled hooves)
• Smooth muscle action, less soreness and stiffness, shorter recovery time (alleviates stiff, immobile joints)
• Sand colic prevention (mucilage traps and suspends sand, moving it out)
• Less incidence of tying up and muscle cramping (soothes aching muscles)
• Top performance potential
• Cell membrane protection from oxidation damage occurring during exercise
• A longer, happier, healthier life

Scientific evidence has indicated that the absence of debilitating disease equals longevity.

Better than the competition:
Omega Antioxidant contains a base of ENRECO® Premium, Human-Grade, Non-GMO, 99.9% Pure, Stabilized, Ground, Fortified Flax to provide Omega-3 (LNA). About 50% of LNA is utilized by the skin and coat (for health and shine), and the rest is used for muscles and modulating the immune system to prevent hyper-immune disorders, heart arrhythmia and excess platelet aggregation.

This base of ENRECO® flax is blended with the special variety of high-antioxidant sorghum ENRECO® contracts for. Premium sorghum is a rich source of polyphenol (plant-based) anti-oxidizing power. Polyphenols also act to regenerate Vitamin E after it becomes oxidized. Omega Antioxidant contains this powerful polyphenol sorghum plus five other powerful antioxidants - Catechins, Quercetin, Taxifolin, Lignans and Tocopherols.

Since numerous forms of free radicals are produced in an animals' body, it makes sense to supplement your horse's diet with the wide range of antioxidants found in Omega Antioxidant. Per serving, the special synergistic variety of natural antioxidants contains more polyphenol anti-oxidizing power than chemical-based antioxidant ingredients. Scientific studies have indicated that antioxidants are most effective and safest when combined in a team effort.

We've never compromised the quality of our products and we never will.

Ingredients:
Stabilized Ground Flax Seed, Ground Grain Sorghum, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement.

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein, % Min.16.40 Crude Fat, % Min22.41Crude Fiber, % Max. 7.44Calcium, % Min.0.2Calcium, % Max. 0.2Phosphorus, % Min. 0.36Magnesium, % Min. 0.22 Potassium, % Min. 0.95Copper, ppm Min. 8.0 Selenium, ppm Min. 0.38Zinc, ppm Min. 60.0Vitamin E, IU/lb. Min. 4.54 Omega-3 Fatty Acids, % Min. 13.40Omega-6 Fatty Acids, % Min. 3.93

Carbohydrates, % Min. 49.40
Digestible Energy = 1,924 Kcal/lb.
Metabolizable Energy = 1,777 Kcal/lb.

Omega Content:
60,604mg of Omega-3 per pound (alpha-linolenic acid)
17,809mg of Omega-6 per pound (linoleic acid)

Recommended Usage:
2/3 cup to 1-1/3 cups Omega Antioxidant daily top dressed over feed for a 1,200 pound horse (adjust proportionally for weight of horse). full amount.



__________________________________________________ ______
(I Cut/ paste from Grand Meadows website for nutrition info:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Grand Complete combines the most effective ingredients from our most popular products, Grand Flex, Grand Hoof Pellets, Grand Coat and Grand Vite into a unique formulation targeting all the key areas for overall wellness of your horse. By providing this powerful, balanced dosage daily, you simplify your program to provide support and help maintain the joints, hooves, coat, immune system and digestive tract with the benefits of its “all-in-one” effectiveness. Consolidating ingredients into one comprehensive product reduces your costs, and provides your horse with an effective support program. Grand Complete is even safe to use with reduced dosages of other Grand Meadows products to further enhance your horse care program.

Product Label Facts

In the meantime, I will continue to comb through previous threads for more info and answers to my questions! If anyone has good references, please include that as well! I really am having fun with all of this "horsey food" business! Not only do I enjoy seeing the benefits from additions to their diet, but I thrive on WHY these additions are beneficial/ and possibly potentially harmful (hope not!) Thank you all for your help! Duke and Buddy give their snorts for ya!

[IheartDuke]

Any info is greatly appreciated! (BUMP)

[wyldterv]

OK, I just read through everything... It is not recommened to overfeed selenium because it can cause serious health issues, hence why the warning to not exceed the recommended amount.

The difference in LMF SS G and A is that G has more calcium/phosh/Protein added to the 'mix' to compensate for what the mostly grass diet is lacking, while the A formula is set up to compliment what feeding mostly alfalfa diet will be lacking. It will not hurt anything to feed the bag of "A" mix even though you're feeding primarily grass diet. Just when you run out, switch to the G formula

As for your horse's size, etc, ONE pound per day is what it should be fed of the LMF SS (one pound per 1000 pounds is the reccomendation) I have spent a few years feeding this product now and have had many conversations with the LMF rep and for a horse your size/weight, one pound a day per my charts. This feed NEEDS to be fed by weight, not volume. Figure out how many cups that you have will hold one pound of feed after weighing the feed on a scale.


I WOULD be careful about adding in another source of Selenium because you don't want to inadvertantly cause Selenium poisening.

As for HOW much BOSS, Ricebran, etc, depends entirely on the body score of the horses involved and why you're feeding it. Are you feeding the BOSS/RB/BP for weight gain? If so then you need to play around a bit to figure out what that horse needs to gain in weight and would probably want to feed 2lbs BOSS and up to 2 bls RB with up to 10lbs Beet pulp..

Are you wanting to just improve coat condition???? then you really only need to feed BOSS OR Ricebran and again, depending on the horses weight, would be how much total you'd end up wanting to feed, and if you're just trying to improve coat then you can forego the Beat pulp entirely.

[imacowgirl2]

One of the reasons selenium is such a big deal is that there is such a TINY difference between deficiency and toxicity -- like a couple parts per million!

[IheartDuke]

Ok, So to clarify my Selenium concerns...I found this on HorseTech.com--Horse Nutrition Supplements--Equine Nutrition on the Net

Selenium Toxicity

The following information regarding Selenium Toxicity has been taken from the National Research Council Nutrient Requirements of Horses, Fifth Revised Ed.

The maximal tolerable level of selenium in horses is estimated at 2 mg/kg of diet (NRC, 1980), and the LD50 for orally administered selenium is considered to be approximately 3.3 mg of selenium (as sodium selenite)/kg of body weight (Miller and Williams, 1940). Copper pretreatment can increase the LD50 markedly (Stowe, 1980). Acute selenium toxicity--blind staggers--is characterized by apparent blindness, head pressing, perspiration, abdominal pain, colic, diarrhea, increased heart and respiration rates, and lethargy (Rosenfeld and Beath, 1964).
Chronic selenium toxicity-alkali disease-is characterized by alopecia, especially about the mane and tail, as well as cracking of the hooves around the coronary band (Rosenfeld and Beath, 1964; Traub-Dargatz and Hamar, 1986).
There are anecdotal accounts of immediate death after administration of injectable vitamin E/selenium preparations. These deaths appear due to an anaphylactoid sensitivity of the horse to a carrier ingredient in the injectable preparations and not to the toxicity of selenium or vitamin E.


Ok, so 2 mg/kg is considered toxic according to this site.
Gauranteed analysis if Selenium in LMF SSA is min 2.99 ppm/ max 3.32 ppm.
Omega Fields (Antiox) .38 mg ppm min (per 1 cup / 100g serving)

So, if I am giving .8 lb of SSA and 1 cup Omerga Fields (Antiox) to a 850 pound horse...am I over the safe limit for Selenium? How do you calculate that?
Sorry guys.. I am having difficulty with the conversions! Does 100 pounds equal 45.4 kg?

[skysthelimit]

I can't help you with the selenium problem, but I can help you with the BOSS, RB and BP questions!

I feed my ration balancer (born to win) with all three products, because my horses don't get a whole lot of grazing time, and according to what you said- your horses are getting a maximum of 3 flakes of hay per day, which, in my opinion, is NOT enough! lol. Mine get 4 hours of grazing everyday (2 in am and 2 in pm) AND 2-3 flakes of hay in the afternoon when they are up and Dawn is always after me about them not getting enough forage (hahahaha! ). ((but they won't eat their food if they are left out for any longer!!!))

I feed mine 2x a day, and they get varying amounts of everything. My growing 2y/o gets 1lb beet pulp, 1lb rice bran, 1/2lb BOSS and 1lb BTW total every day.

My easy keeper Firefly gets 1lb rice bran, 1/2lb beet pulp and 1/2lb of BOSS every day. (she doesn't ge tthe BTW...long story!)

I bought a diet scale at wal mart for $4 and it really saved my butt! I didn't realize how dense the rice bran and ration balancer was until i weighed them and realized I was WAY off my mark with feeding these thigns!!! I HIGHLY recommend getting a scale and just figuring out how much you are really giving them, and tweak it according to their body condition. Mine are all around 5 on the BCS and with Skye still growing, she can fluctuate between a 4 and 5 and I just have to tweak her feed accordingly.

All these items compliment each other well and my horses really seem to like eating them. Good luck!~Brittany

[skysthelimit]

oh! btw- I don't know if you really like the joint supplement you are giving Duke or not, but one I really, REALLY like is coxvetlabs Actiflex (and actiflex senior with added fat). I give it to my appendix (Firefly) who has really bad hocks/stifles/ back problems and it does WONDERS for her. my barn neighbor Lauren recently put her horse on it and she is LOVING it as well. Her horse seems more comfortable and willing to do things like pick up her right lead and stuff. They found arthritis in her back left fetlock (I tihnk it's the left) but it doesn't seem to bother her and she doesn't get as stiff as she did. Same with Firefly- if she goes off of it, I can literally WATCH her go downhill within days.

It's a little pricey- $50 for 5lbs. But it will last you FOREVER and it really works. I think they have a website coxvetlabs.com where you can get some product info. I've tried just about everything there is on the market, and this is the best I have found.~Brittany

[imacowgirl2]

You also need to consider selenium that might/might not be in your soil when you figure out how much your horse is getting...some areas are really high in selenium while some have almost zero in the soil. Someone posted a selenium levels map here fairly recently -- go search "selenium level map" and see if you can find it. If you can't I'll be back later today and I'll find it, but I'm running late now.

Sorry I can't help w/ the calculations.

Oh yes, and I also meant to put in my last post that you should up the forage...horses need at least 1% if not closer to 2% of their diet in long stem forage.

[IheartDuke]

Originally Posted by wyldterv

OK, I just read through everything... It is not recommened to overfeed selenium because it can cause serious health issues, hence why the warning to not exceed the recommended amount.

The difference in LMF SS G and A is that G has more calcium/phosh/Protein added to the 'mix' to compensate for what the mostly grass diet is lacking, while the A formula is set up to compliment what feeding mostly alfalfa diet will be lacking. It will not hurt anything to feed the bag of "A" mix even though you're feeding primarily grass diet. Just when you run out, switch to the G formula
Ok, so should I not worry about adding the all in one alfalfa mix? I was concerned that the SS "A" needed the alfalfa to balance it or make sure that it would break down appropriately when digested.

As for your horse's size, etc, ONE pound per day is what it should be fed of the LMF SS (one pound per 1000 pounds is the reccomendation) I have spent a few years feeding this product now and have had many conversations with the LMF rep and for a horse your size/weight, one pound a day per my charts. This feed NEEDS to be fed by weight, not volume. Figure out how many cups that you have will hold one pound of feed after weighing the feed on a scale.
OK! I will go get a scale today..Wal Mart 4 dollars sounds good to me!) I will also weigh the hay that is given and have better data on that!

I WOULD be careful about adding in another source of Selenium because you don't want to inadvertantly cause Selenium poisening.

As for HOW much BOSS, Ricebran, etc, depends entirely on the body score of the horses involved and why you're feeding it. Are you feeding the BOSS/RB/BP for weight gain? If so then you need to play around a bit to figure out what that horse needs to gain in weight and would probably want to feed 2lbs BOSS and up to 2 bls RB with up to 10lbs Beet pulp..
The history: Previous owner never had anything added to Duke's diet before (only had hay and snr grain). He was lookin a bit scraggly so I heard from other fellow boarders that adding oil would help coat/skin/ hooves. So, I statred adding 1/4-3/4 cup corn/ veg oil per day, and wow! what a difference it made! But then I heard that that was NOT good for him and started researching other fat products flax, rice bran... So no, he is looking good abd is not in any danger of losding weight. (to me he looks a little rotund cause I havent done hardly any saddle work the last 6 months secondary to back/ hoof issues) but everyone else says he is looking good! I dont mind cutting something out, its just I bought 50 pound bags of BOSS, flax, rice bran, and beet pulp, so I have it all ready to use! And, wow! i can see the difference in his coat! I will have to get pictures...his fur feels as soft as feathers where he has shedded out! All I wanna do is pet, pet, pet him!

Are you wanting to just improve coat condition???? then you really only need to feed BOSS OR Ricebran and again, depending on the horses weight, would be how much total you'd end up wanting to feed, and if you're just trying to improve coat then you can forego the Beat pulp entirely.

Please look up though your post...I added my input next to your comments, but it did not separate the two...sorry I 'll try to edit later!

I thought the rice bran was good for maintaing muscle mass esp for Morgans (thanks Sue B!) , so thats why I like that one. I also thought BOSS, beet pulp are great for fiber/ forage.


This is funny! I know I went a little excessive in buying all the different "additions" for him, but I wanted to make sure I have it all accessible !

[wyldterv]

Beet pulp is great for fiber and there is nothing bad or wrong with feeding both BOSS and RB, just MOST horses don't NEED both I personally LOVE the extra coat bloom RB puts on them and they do seem to shed out more quickly/efficiently.