Rant over "Natural Horsemanship"

Blistering Winds · 11-24-2003, 02:30 PM

Ok....Just as a warning...I'm going to be ranting...so please don't freak out......

NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP....boy is that politically incorrect in just those words. First off..there is NOTHING NATURAL when you put any device on your horse and ask him NOT to be a horse.

Second off, if you want to be close in at least "horsemanship" and speak the "equine language", then WATCH a video or go out in a pasture with a herd of horses and WATCH!!!! You can learn a lot by watching horses and how they respond to eachother. You can figure out who is higher than who in a few hours..especially when food is involved.

When a horse gets too near to a "higher" horse, that higher horse pins their ears, bares their teeth, and can eventually bite/kick, and run that other horse off. When a baby is bugging and nipping at momma, momma will bare her teeth, bite, and even kick her OWN BABY!!!

This is the horse's NATURAL LANGUAGE. rarely do you hear a horse neigh to eachother unless it is to a horse that is new, mares/stallions breeding, etc. In a quiet setting, you will rarely hear them talking.

As far as bringing horsemanship into this "natural" setting, teaching a horse that you are "head mare/stallion" is key. The horse must know that you are in charge. When you say back off, YOU MEAN IT!!! You will rarely ever see a low horse bite or kick at a higher up horse. Should be the same with a human and a horse. NO BITING or KICKING allowed!!

Here is where 'biting and kicking" is adjusted for humans. The hand smacking the nose, neck, chest, rear, is similar to a kick from a higher horse. A whip allows a stronger message to those "hard headed or thick skinned knuckle heads". These techniques should be used during an instant that is necessary. Like a Bite, kick, lunge toward you, etc. Same would be administered by another horse responding to this behavior from a lower horse. (Think Snobs..higher horses are snobbier and don't approve of lower horses behavior, place, eating habits, etc)

There are some that just "know" you are head mare and won't challange it...then there are those that constantly challenge you. Adjust your "language" to theirs.

If established early, stays in place longer.

ok...still ranting...remember this.....

If you want to do "NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP" to the letter....then DON"T RIDE!!!! THAT IS TOTALLY UNNATURAL!!!!!!! God forbid you go against nature!!! If you want to be politically correct, then run, be free on 4 legs!!! Be the low man on the totum pole, cause that's where a human would definitly be in the "natural" setting cause the head mare will stomp you into the ground if you come up and challenge her......

Now, my rant in no means is discouraging "natural horsemanship". Many people who use this term take it too literally. And there are some dangerous horses out there because of it. I do agree with pat parelli, John Lyons, Clint Anderson, and many of the other "natural Horsemen". Lots of their techniques I use today. BUT, not all horses will respond to this....there are those knuckleheads out there that insist they are head horse!! And will take you down in the process.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.......Before you go yelling and screaming at me because I just smacked a horse on the nose for trying to take a chunk out of my arm, THINK....... Would you want a chunk taken out of your arm? Would you want a horse like this around your children? Would you like to see your biting horse dead cause I called the cops on it for being vicious and in a public place? If you answered yes to the above, you don't need to own a horse!!!!!! If you answered no to the above, then PLEASE take the time and teach your horse BASIC MANNORS!!!!!!!! Which is, un-natural in itself.

Ok...done ranting.....bad weekend and had to rant or I'm gonna kill this lady and her precious horse.......

jrmorgan · 11-24-2003, 02:43 PM

BRAVO AND KUDOS!

I could not have said it better. In fact this is the argument I use everytime someone cusses me for making my horse live in a barn 24/7 under lights and blankets. "But thats so UNNATURAL!" they tell me.

I say to them "RIDING a horse is unnatural." Hello! Putting a piece of metal in his mouth and a leather thing on his back and making him carry you around was NEVER the horses idea. We decided to use them for our own convenience. My convience is a well behaved and well groomed horse and if that means doing "unnatural" things to my horse, so be it.

Blistering Winds · 11-24-2003, 02:45 PM

I only have one issue with lights.....give the horse some break from the lights 24/7....you can throw a horse totally off and have hair growing in teh SUMMER from 24/7 lights....but that's just my opinion....not yelling at you or anything....

jrmorgan · 11-24-2003, 03:19 PM

Oh I figured you'd assume that when I said under lights I meant the 16on/ 8 off rotation that is used on most show horses.

Wolfie · 11-24-2003, 04:00 PM

I don't like this natural doo doo any more then you guys. But the idea is to find happy medium, no so gentle that your horse runs all over you but not so hard your horse is actually provoked to fear and hate you.

I had a stallion that, if I hit him for being bad, he would sulk for days. Liek when I came to his stall to tack him up he would not move. Smacking made things worse, but if I treated him as the intelligent animal he is, he would listen. No I'm not acussing you guys of being horse beater but I think a passive leader to horse realtionship is better then a 'move-one-foot-outta-line-and-I'll-smack-you-s*@$less' one. Just a opinion

Blistering Winds · 11-24-2003, 04:20 PM

I was referring mostly to the dangerous stuff...biting, kicking, lunging out, whiping around, etc. Not "oh, don't do that lead and WACK" Just the dangerous stuff that you see people saying,,...OH he's just playing..that's how he says he want's a treat or attention.
as my arm is bleeding everywhere.

JR..ok...That I have no issue with. Heard about one of our boarders that wanted to leave all the lights on ALL of them so her horse didn't grow hair. BOY did I raise a fuss. One, most horses in that barn are NOT in show. So why should my horse suffer the dark deprivation. He doesn't grow a coat anyways, and I'm TRYING to get him to....more light won't help him....

Wolfie · 11-24-2003, 04:25 PM

Ohhhh... Sorry. I thought you meant 'Hey you're not listening to me, I said go right!' *Smack*, sorry for that... I havent' had a problem with the light issue. They're on a timer and go off about 3-4 hours after sunset.

gingersnaps2002 · 11-24-2003, 06:21 PM

My friend is WAY too picky with her horse and every other horse she handles,I can't stand that. A horse out in the pen grazing without a halter and lead on drives her crazy,she even puts a bridle on her mare and turns her out in the open!With REINS!If her horse speeds up just the tiniest she jerks on her mouth and rough handles her. She is so harsh to her.She just throws the saddle on,knees the poor horse in the stomach and tightens up the girth.I see no reason in that.

I discipline my horses when they get pushy or do something dangerous.I dont think horses should be allowed to even play nip,that will lead to biting,especially in colts.

Dawn · 11-24-2003, 06:22 PM

She turns her horse out in a bridle? Alright, that makes no sense, and how hasn't the horse broke a leg yet?

As for kneeing, I've done that before too. Some horses can and will hold their breath for an undetermined amount of time. Very dangerous.

cutting_queen · 11-24-2003, 06:24 PM

if you had to use force it would probably mean that the horse had a bad habit and i will admit you have to smack a horse once in a while for biting especially. and there are those certain horses that learn by disipline. but there are horses that fear disipline. i have never hit my horses or smacked my horses and i never will because they don't have bad habits. my 2 1/2 year old i raised from a yearling and i am training him the pat perelli way and he is awesome! he learned to longe in 5 minutes! resistance free training should be used more on the younger horses. but remember there is a fine line between disipline and abuse please don't cross it. and if you obviously don't understand resistance free training you should trash it. i wouldn't train my horses any other way.

11-24-2003, 02:30 PM	#1
Blistering Winds Senior Member+ Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Augusta, Kansas Posts: 32,316 Images: 853 Blog Entries: 18	Rant over "Natural Horsemanship" Ok....Just as a warning...I'm going to be ranting...so please don't freak out...... NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP....boy is that politically incorrect in just those words. First off..there is NOTHING NATURAL when you put any device on your horse and ask him NOT to be a horse. Second off, if you want to be close in at least "horsemanship" and speak the "equine language", then WATCH a video or go out in a pasture with a herd of horses and WATCH!!!! You can learn a lot by watching horses and how they respond to eachother. You can figure out who is higher than who in a few hours..especially when food is involved. When a horse gets too near to a "higher" horse, that higher horse pins their ears, bares their teeth, and can eventually bite/kick, and run that other horse off. When a baby is bugging and nipping at momma, momma will bare her teeth, bite, and even kick her OWN BABY!!! This is the horse's NATURAL LANGUAGE. rarely do you hear a horse neigh to eachother unless it is to a horse that is new, mares/stallions breeding, etc. In a quiet setting, you will rarely hear them talking. As far as bringing horsemanship into this "natural" setting, teaching a horse that you are "head mare/stallion" is key. The horse must know that you are in charge. When you say back off, YOU MEAN IT!!! You will rarely ever see a low horse bite or kick at a higher up horse. Should be the same with a human and a horse. NO BITING or KICKING allowed!! Here is where 'biting and kicking" is adjusted for humans. The hand smacking the nose, neck, chest, rear, is similar to a kick from a higher horse. A whip allows a stronger message to those "hard headed or thick skinned knuckle heads". These techniques should be used during an instant that is necessary. Like a Bite, kick, lunge toward you, etc. Same would be administered by another horse responding to this behavior from a lower horse. (Think Snobs..higher horses are snobbier and don't approve of lower horses behavior, place, eating habits, etc) There are some that just "know" you are head mare and won't challange it...then there are those that constantly challenge you. Adjust your "language" to theirs. If established early, stays in place longer. ok...still ranting...remember this..... If you want to do "NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP" to the letter....then DON"T RIDE!!!! THAT IS TOTALLY UNNATURAL!!!!!!! God forbid you go against nature!!! If you want to be politically correct, then run, be free on 4 legs!!! Be the low man on the totum pole, cause that's where a human would definitly be in the "natural" setting cause the head mare will stomp you into the ground if you come up and challenge her...... Now, my rant in no means is discouraging "natural horsemanship". Many people who use this term take it too literally. And there are some dangerous horses out there because of it. I do agree with pat parelli, John Lyons, Clint Anderson, and many of the other "natural Horsemen". Lots of their techniques I use today. BUT, not all horses will respond to this....there are those knuckleheads out there that insist they are head horse!! And will take you down in the process. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.......Before you go yelling and screaming at me because I just smacked a horse on the nose for trying to take a chunk out of my arm, THINK....... Would you want a chunk taken out of your arm? Would you want a horse like this around your children? Would you like to see your biting horse dead cause I called the cops on it for being vicious and in a public place? If you answered yes to the above, you don't need to own a horse!!!!!! If you answered no to the above, then PLEASE take the time and teach your horse BASIC MANNORS!!!!!!!! Which is, un-natural in itself. Ok...done ranting.....bad weekend and had to rant or I'm gonna kill this lady and her precious horse....... __________________ Never Ignore an itch. It will only get worse!

11-24-2003, 02:45 PM	#3
Blistering Winds Senior Member+ Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Augusta, Kansas Posts: 32,316 Images: 853 Blog Entries: 18	I only have one issue with lights.....give the horse some break from the lights 24/7....you can throw a horse totally off and have hair growing in teh SUMMER from 24/7 lights....but that's just my opinion....not yelling at you or anything.... __________________ Never Ignore an itch. It will only get worse!

11-24-2003, 04:20 PM	#6
Blistering Winds Senior Member+ Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Augusta, Kansas Posts: 32,316 Images: 853 Blog Entries: 18	I was referring mostly to the dangerous stuff...biting, kicking, lunging out, whiping around, etc. Not "oh, don't do that lead and WACK" Just the dangerous stuff that you see people saying,,...OH he's just playing..that's how he says he want's a treat or attention. as my arm is bleeding everywhere. JR..ok...That I have no issue with. Heard about one of our boarders that wanted to leave all the lights on ALL of them so her horse didn't grow hair. BOY did I raise a fuss. One, most horses in that barn are NOT in show. So why should my horse suffer the dark deprivation. He doesn't grow a coat anyways, and I'm TRYING to get him to....more light won't help him.... __________________ Never Ignore an itch. It will only get worse!

11-24-2003, 06:22 PM	#9
Dawn Senior Member+ Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tennessee Posts: 35,271 Images: 1565	She turns her horse out in a bridle? Alright, that makes no sense, and how hasn't the horse broke a leg yet? As for kneeing, I've done that before too. Some horses can and will hold their breath for an undetermined amount of time. Very dangerous. __________________ Starting Weight 170 lbs. Current Weight 152 lbs. Goal Weight 155 lbs. 20 pound club 2009 Miles walked this week ~ Miles walked this month ~ Miles walked this year ~ 30

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11-24-2003, 02:43 PM	#2
jrmorgan Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 302	BRAVO AND KUDOS! I could not have said it better. In fact this is the argument I use everytime someone cusses me for making my horse live in a barn 24/7 under lights and blankets. "But thats so UNNATURAL!" they tell me. I say to them "RIDING a horse is unnatural." Hello! Putting a piece of metal in his mouth and a leather thing on his back and making him carry you around was NEVER the horses idea. We decided to use them for our own convenience. My convience is a well behaved and well groomed horse and if that means doing "unnatural" things to my horse, so be it.

11-24-2003, 03:19 PM	#4
jrmorgan Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 302	Oh I figured you'd assume that when I said under lights I meant the 16on/ 8 off rotation that is used on most show horses.

11-24-2003, 04:00 PM	#5
Wolfie Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Illinois Posts: 36	I don't like this natural doo doo any more then you guys. But the idea is to find happy medium, no so gentle that your horse runs all over you but not so hard your horse is actually provoked to fear and hate you. I had a stallion that, if I hit him for being bad, he would sulk for days. Liek when I came to his stall to tack him up he would not move. Smacking made things worse, but if I treated him as the intelligent animal he is, he would listen. No I'm not acussing you guys of being horse beater but I think a passive leader to horse realtionship is better then a 'move-one-foot-outta-line-and-I'll-smack-you-s*@$less' one. Just a opinion

11-24-2003, 04:25 PM	#7
Wolfie Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Illinois Posts: 36	Ohhhh... Sorry. I thought you meant 'Hey you're not listening to me, I said go right!' Smack, sorry for that... I havent' had a problem with the light issue. They're on a timer and go off about 3-4 hours after sunset.

11-24-2003, 06:21 PM	#8
gingersnaps2002 Banned Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: arkansas Posts: 1,350	My friend is WAY too picky with her horse and every other horse she handles,I can't stand that. A horse out in the pen grazing without a halter and lead on drives her crazy,she even puts a bridle on her mare and turns her out in the open!With REINS!If her horse speeds up just the tiniest she jerks on her mouth and rough handles her. She is so harsh to her.She just throws the saddle on,knees the poor horse in the stomach and tightens up the girth.I see no reason in that. I discipline my horses when they get pushy or do something dangerous.I dont think horses should be allowed to even play nip,that will lead to biting,especially in colts.

11-24-2003, 06:24 PM	#10
cutting_queen Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: arlington, washington (hicksville,usa) Posts: 368	if you had to use force it would probably mean that the horse had a bad habit and i will admit you have to smack a horse once in a while for biting especially. and there are those certain horses that learn by disipline. but there are horses that fear disipline. i have never hit my horses or smacked my horses and i never will because they don't have bad habits. my 2 1/2 year old i raised from a yearling and i am training him the pat perelli way and he is awesome! he learned to longe in 5 minutes! resistance free training should be used more on the younger horses. but remember there is a fine line between disipline and abuse please don't cross it. and if you obviously don't understand resistance free training you should trash it. i wouldn't train my horses any other way.