[pahooska]

On Tightening the Saddle: I saw one of the Natural Horseman on TV tighten the saddle fairly snug I suppose and then lunged the horse 2 or 3 times in a circle. He then brought the horse in and tightened a little more. I think he done it the third time to get the girth the way he wanted it. I figured that this was a good method of creeping up slowely. running_

[QHGirl]

Back to the original Rant.... BRAVO.... (clapping and applauding) I commend you for writing that. EXACTLY what I have been trying to say but you seemed to NAIL IT!!!

There is extreame cases in everything if you are "FIRM" yet sympathetic you will get the point across to the horse. We are not talking whipping till it bleeds, we are talking a quick correction and moving on. That is the difference with alot of people.

OH and the thing I laugh at is those people who ask their horse, please do this.... please... go on... tap tap tap... no pressure or resistance... oh the horse is having a bad day, lets put him/her away... I fall over in amazement! They wonder why their horse steps all over them and drags them around the field.... HUM... Horses are not stuipid they bully you once, they know they have you for good!!!

[jrmorgan]

People, there is a difference between jabbing your horse in the side and APPLYING pressure. When you want your horse to move off you apply pressure to his side. This is a routine method of moving a horse over.

Like wise, what Dawn is saying is that while she has 2 hands on the girth, she raises her knee and PRESSES her horse at the girth, which WILL indeed make the horse let out air. This is no more pressure than you use to move a horse over with your foot. It is NOT abuse. It is pressure which is what horse training is based on.

Walking a horse for 30 minutes teachs it nothing about holding it's breath. They just eventually can't hold it anymore. If you've got all day to ride, go ahead and do that. I personally have to work 2-4 horses a day before I go to my "real" job, and I haven't got time to walk a stubborn horse for 30mins until he lets his breath out. Dawns way is quite acceptable and time efficient, as I'm sure being a student that she has quite enough to do.

[gingersnaps2002]

OK,my friends horse,Babe,does not hold her breath at all,but she still knees her pretty hard.I'm just saying there's no reason for it.
When I tighten the girth,I tighten it pretty good then I put on and adjust the other stuff.Then I go back to the girth and then it is ok to tighten the rest of the way.

[Dawn]

Thank you jr.
Okay, if the horse doesn't have a problem, there's no need for it. I agree with that. And even if I lunge him, get on then tighten, whatever, it does work because as soon as my hand goes to the flap, he puffs back up more. I don't ride this particular horse much any more, but this is the method that everyone that rides him uses, and he doesn't show any signs that a horse that's been abused at saddling shows. He doesn't pin his ears, he doesn't bite, he doesn't kick.
I personally think that the people that walk up and slap a saddle on a horses back could be called abusive. But then again, you have to look at how many people do that. It almost seems that the more people that do something the more acceptable it is. If it were common practice to punch a horse in the nose for neighing, it wouldn't be considered abuse. It's not about what actually hurts the horse, it what society will accept.

[QHlover]

You people have more "problems" with your horses.
I swear!!!

[Blistering Winds]

HOrses have the lung capability and the muscle tone to "blow up" their girth area to not allow the girth to be tightened...took my horse 5 years to learn it...and now he does it. About 30 minutes is the lenght of time that a horse can hold the "blow up" position. Walking, lunging, all of it helps. Putting your knee into their side works part way, but not all the time. I have to do mine a few times..just to semi-secure the saddle. SEMI SECURE!!! He's BAD when he does it. The slow way is better, but when you have horses running everywhere cause one decided to break out, and need to get them, you need them NOT to blow up cause you don't have the 10 minutes to get things done. A few times with the knee, they don't blow up as bad, and eventually quit because we are making it more uncomfortable than if they just let us do what we want to do. Just nudge them hard, not beat the **** out of their chest like some of ya'll are thinking. Just like getting them to move forward. They don't move, nudge harder. They get the idea and the really good ones get the idea before you think about it.

And as far as "problems" I have less problems with my horse than most people have. My horse respects people to where he doesn't bite, kick, lunge, step-on (kids), he stands quietly when he is told to, doesn't nip at other horses as they go by, and has excellent ground mannors and works excellent on the ground. It's one thing to get your horse to respect you, whole nother ball game to get them to respect the people and horses around him.

[Jumpers]

Sorry Dawn for the confusion. You used the word "KNEEING" which does not present a very good mental picture.

If my doctor said, "Okay. I'm going to knee you in the belly now to feel your appendix" I would freak out!!! But if he said, "Okay. I'm going to apply pressure to your belly now to feel your appendix" then that is a whole nother ball game!!

You confused me when you said you "knee" your horse in the gut. Applying pressure is fine and if that's what you have to do for a bloater than great, but you worried me for a minute!

[J. Wolf]

Bee Dubya,

I recognize the need to rant and let off steam - been known to do it myself occasionally! blushing

These last few days have seen some pretty heated (for this forum, anyway) back and forth between those that advocate NH, and those that don't, or have major problems with particular parts or practitioners. I think you're on one side of this debate, and I'm on the other. I HAVE come a long way towards understanding what you, JR, etc., are saying, and now that I understand better, I agree with or at least understand most of your points.

Let me make sure I understand, and let you know where I still have trouble understanding (what with being a guy, and all eek! !)...

Blistering Winds:
Ok....Just as a warning...I'm going to be ranting...so please don't freak out......

Roger!

NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP....boy is that politically incorrect in just those words. First off..there is NOTHING NATURAL when you put any device on your horse and ask him NOT to be a horse.

True...

Second off, if you want to be close in at least "horsemanship" and speak the "equine language", then WATCH a video or go out in a pasture with a herd of horses and WATCH!!!! You can learn a lot by watching horses and how they respond to eachother. You can figure out who is higher than who in a few hours..especially when food is involved.

Regarding "Natural Horsemanship" Many object to the use of the term "Natural", and you are right - horses don't get ridden in the wild. The term was applied, rightly or wrongly, to differentiate new methods of training from the old methods of literally breaking the spirit of a horse to gain compliance. The term IS inexact, but they had to call it something, and it IS more like what horses do with each other - more "like nature" than the beatings and busting methods. I know there are some NH advocates out there that don't get that, but as with many things involving horses, the problem is with the people. I wouldn't recommend getting too hung up on the name (yeah, I know, you were ranting wink )

When a horse gets too near to a "higher" horse, that higher horse pins their ears, bares their teeth, and can eventually bite/kick, and run that other horse off. When a baby is bugging and nipping at momma, momma will bare her teeth, bite, and even kick her OWN BABY!!!

True, but...

This is the horse's NATURAL LANGUAGE. rarely do you hear a horse neigh to eachother unless it is to a horse that is new, mares/stallions breeding, etc. In a quiet setting, you will rarely hear them talking.

Also true, but...

As far as bringing horsemanship into this "natural" setting, teaching a horse that you are "head mare/stallion" is key. The horse must know that you are in charge. When you say back off, YOU MEAN IT!!! You will rarely ever see a low horse bite or kick at a higher up horse. Should be the same with a human and a horse. NO BITING or KICKING allowed!!

I've said this a couple of times before in other threads, and no one that disagrees with me on the point of physical domination has ever responded to this point: You aren't a mare, or any kind of a horse, and your horse knows it.We are predators. We have eyes on the front of our heads, we smell like other predators, and horses will not respond to our "physicalness" the same way as it would from another horse. From a predator it invokes fight or flight. From another horse, it's just the herd thing. Horses do not punish each other when they bite and kick, and a horse that gets out of line when it gets bitten or kicked for misbehaving doesn't feel punished. Pain inflicted by humans IS punishment, and if a horse learns while it is in pain, it's in spite of it, not because of it. Pain from a human invokes fight or flight. Pain from another horse is just another day in the pasture.

Here is where 'biting and kicking" is adjusted for humans. The hand smacking the nose, neck, chest, rear, is similar to a kick from a higher horse. A whip allows a stronger message to those "hard headed or thick skinned knuckle heads". These techniques should be used during an instant that is necessary. Like a Bite, kick, lunge toward you, etc. Same would be administered by another horse responding to this behavior from a lower horse. (Think Snobs..higher horses are snobbier and don't approve of lower horses behavior, place, eating habits, etc)

I agree that bad manners must be dealt with. Horses must not be allowed to bite, kick, push, drag, etc. And, the methods you describe above would only be called abusive by the most conservative of trainers, NH or otherwise. What got me going on this whole topic though was the discussion by someone - maybe more than one - that their horses got prolonged punishment for transgressions. My fear, and perhaps the fear of many that advocate a "pain free" approach to horsemanship, is that if you open the door to a physical, "it's ok to inflict pain" approach, it can become a crutch and an outlet for frustration. I'm not saying anyone in particular does this, I'm saying that it actually works against a horse's learning. To those that have "dangerous" horses that "need" that kind of approach, I guess my question would be - how did the horse get that way, and what are you doing with it now?

There are some that just "know" you are head mare and won't challange it...then there are those that constantly challenge you. Adjust your "language" to theirs.

Again, they know you aren't a horse. They will submit to you - a predator - once they trust you aren't going to kill and eat them, or hurt them as you move them around, on the ground or under saddle. The Alpha mare in the herd does the same thing, and that is what they are responding to. They just ain't never gonna mistake us for horses, not with how we smell,look, and move. All horses, including stallions, can be raised to obey willingly and without pain. NH methods give the average horse owner a means to do it with a reasonable chance of success. Again, the problem is rarely the horse, it's his humans.

If you want to do "NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP" to the letter....then DON"T RIDE!!!! THAT IS TOTALLY UNNATURAL!!!!!!! God forbid you go against nature!!! If you want to be politically correct, then run, be free on 4 legs!!! Be the low man on the totum pole, cause that's where a human would definitly be in the "natural" setting cause the head mare will stomp you into the ground if you come up and challenge her......

IF I were another mare, yes. Once she gets wind of lil ol predator me though, she's gonna bolt, and take her herd with her! Given the option to flee, a horse that does not trust humans will run. Every time. It's in the settings we put them in, where that option is NOT available, that we invite the "fight " part of the reflex.

Now, my rant in no means is discouraging "natural horsemanship". Many people who use this term take it too literally. And there are some dangerous horses out there because of it. I do agree with pat parelli, John Lyons, Clint Anderson, and many of the other "natural Horsemen". Lots of their techniques I use today. BUT, not all horses will respond to this....there are those knuckleheads out there that insist they are head horse!! And will take you down in the process.

I agree that many people think you must not EVER pop a horse on the nose (they've never been bitten hard from a horse that surprised them from behind, I'll wager!), and I suppose ther are horses out there that won't respond to a stern look in the eye, approach behind the girth line, driving, etc. Those horses called someone's bluff at some point, and got away with it. I guess I would have to question my motives for continuing to work with a horse that wouldn't come to respect me in fairly short order...If I stayed with it, then I'd hope to take the approach that it takes as long as it takes. I'll smack him to protect myself, but not in the hope of teaching him anything.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.......Before you go yelling and screaming at me because I just smacked a horse on the nose for trying to take a chunk out of my arm, THINK....... Would you want a chunk taken out of your arm? Would you want a horse like this around your children? Would you like to see your biting horse dead cause I called the cops on it for being vicious and in a public place? If you answered yes to the above, you don't need to own a horse!!!!!! If you answered no to the above, then PLEASE take the time and teach your horse BASIC MANNORS!!!!!!!! Which is, un-natural in itself.

I do understand this, believe me. I've been bitten very badly several times - as I'm sure we all have - and it's never been by my horse! It's always someone else's ill-mannered lout. I don't think screwing up a horse manners-wise is the sole provence of NH types, though. Seen the "old fashioned" types with no kidding world famous training credentials screw up a horse or two, too.

Ok...done ranting.....bad weekend and had to rant or I'm gonna kill this lady and her precious horse......

Whew! Long post! Thanks for hanging in there! I appreciate what you do on the forum, Bee Dubya, and appreciate the opportunity to hear more of your thoughts on this. We really aren't as far apart as I'd originally thought!

[Jumpers]

QHlover:
You people have more "problems" with your horses.
I swear!!!

You know what? I agree with that. I've owned/trained/bred horses for more decades than I care to think about (LOL) and have had very very few problems. I have never owned a "vice" horse. Never owned a "colic" horse. Never owned a chronically lame horse. Never owned a vicious horse. Never owned a sickly horse.

All the horses I have ridden, worked, trained, owned, bred have been excellent animals in superb health, beautiful dispositions, and a joy to be around.

Maybe I'm just lucky. Don't know.