[Fallon]

[quote=lbhugg;3916745]

Originally Posted by Fallon

Gelding and releasing causes huge problems within the herd structures. It's a nice idea but not practical at all. The expense, the care needed for gelding (try doing that for a wild horse), and then the herd social ramifications of having geldings who won't fight off a stud running loose in the herds etc... Not good.



I guess i don't see it by gelding some of them they are basically lower on the totem pole because at that point they don't have a hard drive to fight aka another stallion is lead. I am not saying to geld them all. As far as cost and care I don't know what your vet charge out there or anything but I sure would think it is cheaper than housing feeding all those horses. Again I don't know how you run things that way but when a geld is done around here it isn't really any care turn them out and go they want them exersized but nothing gets put on them.

The problem is that in the wild there is one male to the herd of mares. Once a male foal is old enough to get interested in the ladies, he's run out of the herd, where he either wanders alone or joins a bachelor band.

The bachelors are usually okay with each other until one wants a mare, then everyone does. Problems arise when you have one stallion who gets a mare with a herd of bachelors. The stallion thinks he needs to protect his mare from the other's and the fights begin. Gelding would be more likely to be run out of the HMA completely, to another HMA or to the 'peoples' areas.

Plus geld too many and you end up with a very limited gene pool. In some areas no mares would get bred in others only a few. Sometimes the BLM will take a few horses from one HMA and put the in another with similiar horses to diversify the gene pool a bit.

There's really no easy solution, there are pros and cons to each. It comes down to the budget (everything costs money), the ability to do certain things, the 'how' to get those things done, and what they are limited to do by law. They do what they can and really no system is ever perfect, but it is better than nothing at all.

****
Well, I don't know many vets who will geld horses on the open range, so the gelding is done at the holding facilities. Again, once a horse is there, they need fed and watered and moved and they begin to loose thier fear of humans, so most times they don't turn the horses back out on the range. I don't know what the cost is to get them from the range to there either.

Gelding here, for domestics, runs about $480 plus antibiotics for two weeks. I have no idea how much a vet would charge the BLM. I do know that it has been looked into before and the costs and social ramifications of the herd dynamics were deemed unacceptable (herd dynamics) and too expensive (budget).

I do agree though, if gelding and BC for the mares worked, with no major conflicts as a result, it could be a good thing.

[lbhugg]

Ouch If I remember correctly it is about 200.00to geld here. been a while since ihad to get any done but a friend of mine has had a few done recently and Ithink that is what she had said.

Do you know approx. how many wild horses do we have left? What rate are we capturing them?

[pest 357]

There were objections to the Kiger round ups I was one of many. It is not just Cloud.Tonight I got word that The BLM plans to remove /clear out 11 herd areas, WoW. They can't feed the 30,000 they have and plan on killing a large number of those Because they can't care for them.Yes I listened to the live BLM meeting,Yet they are rounding up more,WHAT??? As for holding pens/long term holding whatever the mustangs live in crowded not a blade of grass in sight pens. After that they go to 3Strikes out of sight out of mind! At the rate the BLM is cleaning out the mustangs there will be no wild horses in the wild in very short order!

[Fallon]

Originally Posted by pest 357

There were objections to the Kiger round ups I was one of many. It is not just Cloud.Tonight I got word that The BLM plans to remove /clear out 11 herd areas, WoW. They can't feed the 30,000 they have and plan on killing a large number of those Because they can't care for them.Yes I listened to the live BLM meeting,Yet they are rounding up more,WHAT??? As for holding pens/long term holding whatever the mustangs live in crowded not a blade of grass in sight pens. After that they go to 3Strikes out of sight out of mind! At the rate the BLM is cleaning out the mustangs there will be no wild horses in the wild in very short order!

Yes, they must round up horses. Most of the herds they are rounding up have no forage left. The HMA is cleaned out. Would you rather they starved to death? The ultimate plan is to take the horses off there for several years and then round up horses that remain in other HMA's and to move them straight to the HMA after the environment has had a chance to recover. Will this happen? Have no idea, they don't even know for sure, but it's still better than letting them starve.

Yes, Euthanasia of many of those horses is something they are considering. Budget cuts equal less feed. They are responsible for these horses. They have to do something. If they aren't adopted out, something has to give.

They have to round up, they can't leave the horses out there to starve. They have to have the budget to feed the horses, no money equals no feed, so they have to do something.

They own these horses, just like you own yours. If you can't feed it and you can't find anyone to take it off your hands, what are your options? Letting it starve? Euthanizing it? Which would you prefer to do?

I have never seen a fuss over the Kiger roundups or the Warm Springs roundups etc. Not like what is going on with Cloud. All anyone ever hears about is Cloud this Cloud that. I've never seen mass emails or posts about any roundup except for Clouds.

The holding pens are temporary places, sure there's no grass, that's where the budget comes in, they get fed hay.

For one example of a long term (3 strikes facility) facility go check out the Pioneer Woman's blog. That is what most long term facilities are like.

There IS NOT and NEVER HAS BEEN any plan to completely remove the wild mustangs from the HMA'S. Statements like that are what lead to people who don't know, to make blanket wide ranging statements, that lead to severe irritation from the people who do know.

I go to all the adoption events in the area, I talk to the BLM all the time, I'm a card carrying member of the AMBA, I know the founders of the USAMBA, I volunteer and help people in the area with thier adopted horses, I do alot for the mustangs in this area.

But I will never sit back and scream from my computer that the BLM should never round up or euthanize a horse, that instead they should let them all starve.

That does absolutely nothing to help these horses. The general public does not know the true conditions of the horses out in the HMA's, unless you've actually been there to see them in person, you will have no true idea about the condition of the animals, about the amount of forage left etc.

The BLM is not perfect, but I see no other suggestions on what they should do, just everyone telling them not to do this or that. I've said it before, come up with a better solution and suggest it.

[wakiya]

Almost no one did anything to save the ORIGINAL mustangs... the BLMs are just next on the list it seems. It's a shame the Pryor herd had some spanish influence still left in them too. Someone non-biased should check out the condition of the HMAs because what I've heard is there's plenty of land, food, water available, and the horses are rarely seen

[Fallon]

I've been to the HMA's in OR only. I don't know about the ones in WY or NV. I can say that in most places in OR there is alot of forage. In other places, there is none. In places where there is forage, you rarely see the horses, but in the others... The horses have started wandering looking for food.

Water is not usually a problem in OR, except for the desert regions. It can be in NV. And in WY, they show that in the documentary on Cloud.

Too many horses in any HMA means less food and less water, which then causes the horses to wander farther and farther looking for them, hence the reasons for the roundups.

Yes, in some areas the HMA's are doing wonderfully well at supporting the mustangs and native species that are there. In other HMA's and parts of some HMA's nothing can survive, because there's nothing left there.

[wildwoods]

I am the person who wrote the original letter to Oprah about the Pryor Mountain herd removal this summer and the plight of the wild horses.

First of all, I am simply using the Pryor Mt herd as an example, and wrote the letter concerning them because it was specifically requested by The Cloud Foundation. They are a herd that has gotten a lot of attention over the years because of Ginger Kathren's documentary movies about them. "Fallon" is correct in stating that they are no more important in the scope of things than any other Mustang herd. However, they are coming under fire right now and bringing awareness to the issue it is a chance to pull a few heartstrings with people who who have seen the documentary and realize the complex social structure of wild horse herds and the damage that removing half of a herd can cause.

You will note that in the letter I state that ALL wild Mustangs are in imminent danger of becoming extinct in the wild soon. Not simply the Pryor Mt herd. Though some people are still trying to support the BLM's handling of the mustangs, there is some evidence that they do not have the horses best interest in mind. . Recent documents have been released stating the BLM's plan to destroy wild horses. http://www.thecloudfoundation.org/6....sreleases.html
Their proposed plan to euthanize 30,000 + mustangs I think also speaks for itself.

Saying that the Pryor Mountain Mustangs are in danger of starving to death is absolute nonsense. Having visited the herd I can assure you all that they are fat and happy. Sure, Montana winters are rough on all animals, and they come out of it a little thin every year, and a few old ones do starve to death, as do all animals in nature, but I see a lot more horses starving to death in peoples back yards than you will ever see out in the wild. The BLM's continual insistence that the mustang herds are all going to starve to death if they don't intervene and pull these horses off the range is simply not correct. The truth of the matter is if they don't pull the horses off the range there will be no need for managing the mustangs to the extent they do, and there would be a lot less funding going towards the BLM.

Cloud just turned 14 years old by the way, so saying that "(he's very old, he probably doesn't have all that many years left anyway)." seems a little ridiculous.

And for those of us who simply "whine" about the Mustang problem and don't do anything about it, I am the proud and loving owner of 3 beautiful mustang mares. And no, none of them are Pryor Mustangs. One is from Tonapah NV, and two are from Oregon. I have also spent many hours writing letter & emails, calling Congress, State Representatives, BLM administration, and anyone else who may have the ability to do something to help protect the wild horses.

I urge all of you to do the same.

[Fallon]

It all comes down to funding. If they don't manage the herds, the herds will get to big and there will be less forage and water for those herds. So yes, the are in danger of starving, if left alone and not managed that is the end result. If there is no funding for managing, they must do something. Pulling the herds is a viable option. There is already ALOT less funding going to the BLM, something has to be done.

I'm sorry but I disagree that removing half the herd would cause more of social problem than letting the herd grow to uncontrolled proportions would. Removal of certain animals within the herd actually helps with the complex social structure. Introduction of new animals also helps keep the social structure what it is today.

Euthanizing is a viable option. I'm sorry that you would rather the animals starve. That also shows to me that you wish to have the 'romantic image of a majestic animal running free' for all time, but don't have a clue about reality. (You being generalized). I would love to see anyone manage and feed 70,000+ horses every year on a limited fixed budget that doesn't even begin to cover the real costs involved. In order to be able to feed the horses, the numbers must come down. If people don't adopt, something has to be done. I'm so tired of people who just don't get that part of it all. Offer up a better solution - as of yet, not a single one has been found.

So, raise a fuss about one herd, public outcry for THAT herd is raised. Guess what, some other herd that no one cares about because a movie wasn't made about them, gets the axe. This biased outcry for one herd will accomplish absolutely nothing. You can say it's about all the herds, but when someone walks away, all they remember or care about is that ONE herd. Because that's the focus.

Took the whole 'you' word personally did you? It was a generalized word meaning 'not me' but you, the ones out there in the general public that do nothing but sit and whine.

As for Clouds age... I figure 14 for a wild stallion is old. They rarely have herds of their own beyond age 20, they usually don't live much longer than that in the wild. Once domesticated and tamed, they can live well beyond 20 in great health and usefullness. It just rarely happens in the wild.

Good for you for writing letters and owning a few mustangs. You still need to get a good long look at the reality of managing and feeding 70,000+ horses a year. Those numbers GROW every year and every year the money (budget) given to take care of that number of animals DECREASES! That is reality.

No amount of letter writing, calls, emails, etc. is going to change reality. If no solution is offered, they will do what must be done and to the dogs with the public outcry for thier favorite herd.

Something has to be done and that something has to be something other than leaving the herds alone. That's reality.

Until a solution is found, nothing will change and they will do what must be done.

Where is your solution to the problem? I don't see one. There isn't one. So, write letters etc. it's not doing a dang thing to help the horses, just helps that one herd. But does NOT solve the problem.

Stop with the letter writing campaign for one horse and start brainstorming solutions. Stop wasting time and effort on something that isn't a viable option and start using the time constructively and working towards a solution for ALL mustangs.

I am so done with this. I am totally fed up with how people refuse to understand the reality of having to feed and manage 70,000+ horses every year on a continually shrinking budget is just not working. I'm so tired of people who think that humanely euthanizing a few thousand so they don't starve to death is awful. I'm so tired of people who think that rounding up some of the herds EVERY OTHER YEAR to keep the numbers down so that there is forage, is awful. I'm so tired of these people who think this and yet won't/can't/don't come up with an alternative.

Reality is reality. Letters, emails, whatever, won't change reality. Good luck.

[pest 357]

This is what the people who live in the areas see green grass no problems with mustangs yet the BLM says it can't support the horses and they must be removed???

July 1, 2009

Chris Mayer
Supervisory Rangeland Management Specialist
Egan Field Office
Bureau of Land Management, HC 33
BOX 33500
Ely, Nevada 89301

Regarding: 4720 (NVL01000)

Dear Mr. Mayer

Two days ago, I drove through the center of the White River Herd Area on the road that goes from State Highway 318 across Wells Station Summit and on to Currant. I had planned to drive the Timber Mountain Pass road as well, but since habitat conditions appear so lush throughout the White River Valley, I did not cross the Seaman Herd Area, believing that the conditions which I had viewed on the White River Herd Area would be representative of those found on the Seaman Herd Area.

On my drive, the ground conditions were breathtakingly beautiful, with greenness, sprouting new vegetation, and lushness. Given what wild horses have to live with in Western Nevada, these conditions represented a remarkably comfortable-looking environment for wild horses which live in that Herd Area.

I saw fewer than a dozen wild horses during the 30-mile drive, and the road contained very little in the way of horse droppings….mostly on the west side of Wells Station Summit. I did not observe any “trailing” areas, or areas where “excessive utilization” might be said to occur, since this area looks marvelous compared to Western Nevada wild horse areas. I did note that areas where water might have occurred in the past did seem a bit dry.

Speaking of water, I note that the BLM claims an absence of water as a primary reason for horse removal. Yet, it appears that in the last 10 years, close to 700 horses were removed from the White River Herd Area, and the current census of animals is estimated at a very modest 168 animals. Clearly, there is water available for that Herd Area. If the BLM doesn’t know where it is, the horses apparently do, since they have been successful in living on that very large Herd Area for years.

I did not see any cows, though it appeared that cattle grazing had occurred there recently, for example, at Hardy Springs. While that may not be in the Herd Area, it suggested to me that ranchers have had their livestock nearby, and probably on the Herd Area.

I send this letter, then, with a large question for myself as to why horse removal is necessary on the White River Herd Area now. Vegetation conditions now are remarkably good, and the large size of the Herd Area compared to the small number of horses estimated to be in attendance, does not warrant horse removal based upon current conditions in my view.

Of course, there are lots of other unanswered questions as well in terms of future plans for livestock use in the Herd Area, wildlife usage (big game species populations, except for mule deer, are at all-time high levels), how much of the damage alleged to be by horses may actually be due to cattle use in the past, etc.

I would wonder if this planned horse removal is nothing more than a politically-inspired action rather than something related to on-the-ground conditions since my admittedly brief look at the center of the Horse Area would not suggest need for a zeroing out of horses in that area at this time.

I would hope you have the capacity to reconsider this decision.

Sincerely


Don Molde
Reno, Nevada

[pest 357]

This is the new plan the BLM has for the mustangs please note it is Not just Cloud's herd!

The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) has announced a plan to zero out 11 wild horse herd areas (HAs) from Nevada?s Ely district. BLM purports to justify the wholesale elimination of the herds by blaming the horses for environmental damage while ignoring livestock impact, past and present, and other factors. For example, no consideration is given to the role that cattle fences -- including those that deprive horses of access to water -- are playing in unnaturally constricting the movements of the horses. The 11 Herd Areas represent 1,386,992 acres and are home to only 620 wild horses, or one horse per 2,237 acres! Yet BLM still means to tell us that in these vast areas wild horses are overpopulated and destroying the ecosystem.

Please protest this gross waste of tax-dollars and mismanagement of our natural resources by contacting the following:

- John F. Ruhs, District Manager, Ely District Office, BLM, HC33 Box 33500, Ely, NV 89301-9408 john_ruhs@blm.gov
- Ruth_thompson@blm.gov
- Benjamin_noyes@blm.gov
Comments must be received by Monday, July 6, 2009. Please include your name and address and the following reference: 8560(NVL0000) - Notice of Proposed Action: Elimination of all wild horses from 11 Herd Areas.

On behalf of the horses, thank you for your support,

The AWHPC Team
American Wild Horse Preservation Campaign
www.wildhorsepreservation.org
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