[Dawn]

I finally found something in writing! I've not really been 'looking', but I knew it was out there. This is just one source, I have seen it any many publications by a variety of nutritionists.

Proteins can be used to provide energy, especially in emergencies, but it is wasteful and sometimes harmful to continually feed protein as an energy source. It can result in unpleasant side effects, such as excess urine production and high ammonia output. Excess urine output can strain the kidneys. At the least, overfeeding protein is a waste of money.

Taken directly from Storey's Guide to Feeding Horses by nutritionist Melyni Worth.

It is a relatively elementary nutrition book, so obviously does not go into the how's and why's. I have seen books though that do. They are out there, I promise.

So, not only can protein be used as an 'energy' source, but it is also harmful (over time) to do so.

[MissBandit]

You're such a smartie pants.

[wyldterv]

LOLOL... There are a TON of articles out there Dawn... Google it, LOL... and of course Storey's Which is an excellent layperson's Horse Nutritional guide.

The biggest reason to be cautious when feeding alfalfa is that it is high in LOW QUALITY protein, which horses have a difficult time in successfully processing and utilizing, so they end up peeing it out,which can be hard on the kidney's and urinary tract in general

[Dawn]

Of course there's always the marvel known as 'never-being-able to-find-anything-just-when-you-need-it'. So here about, what, a month (?) after the discussion, I find it, lol.

[Blistering Winds]

Alfalfa is the most popular legume hay for horses due to its sweet fragrance, palatability and high nutrient content. Myths about alfalfa are that alfalfa precipitates kidney problems, causes increased sweating and causes more digestive upsets than grass hays. Again remember alfalfa hay is high in protein content. When horses consume more protein than they require, they urinate more to rid themselves of the protein they don't need. Excess urination does not hurt a horse with healthy kidneys.

by: Henderson County Horse Committee
Athens, Texas


NUTRIENT CONTENT AND PROBLEMS
ASSOCIATED WITH GRASS AND LEGUME HAYS

Dr. Doug Householder
Professor and Extension Horse Specialist
Equine Science Section
Dept. of Animal Science
Texas A&M University


http://agfacts.tamu.edu/D5/Henderso/...legumehay.html


Saying that "EXCESS URINATION will hurt a horses kidneys" is like saying DON"T DRINK TOO MUCH WATER< too much urination will hurt the horses kidneys

[Dawn]

Again, like I stated in my initial post, this is from a rather elementary nutrition book. It does not go into the how's and why's of the problems that excess urination causes. Such as the fact that the actual urination is not what causes the issues, it is why the horse is having to urinate more that is causing the issues (increased waste products being filtered).

Then again, I highly suspect that I could get a quote from God himself saying this, and you would counter it.

[Blistering Winds]

Probably.....

But this is direct from people who have done various NUTRITIONAL research.

I'll stand by my statements. You can stand by yours.

[Dawn]

Originally Posted by Blistering Winds

Probably.....

So now God is all knowing....except about equine nutrition?

But this is direct from people who have done various NUTRITIONAL research.

And yet I have the same thing, and it is wrong. Apparently your people are better than my people.

[Blistering Winds]

STOREY gets their information from other sources. Plus that book is an older book and information to begin with.

I have seen research of up to 10 times the amount of protein the NRC says to feed, with no problems on healthy horses. Getting THAT much protein in a horse is practically impossible unless you have them on strict protein sources and nothing else added to their diets.

WHICH, basically, in the eyes of the average horse owner, over dosing on protein is VERY VERY VERY hard to do and on a healthy horse, has really no ill effects of a mature horse....except for a VERY messy stall.

That is what MANY nutritionists have said from VARIOUS places...Purina, Nutrina, Martindale, Research nutritionists, Texas A&M Professors and researchers have concluded through researches done over the years, WTAMU Professors stand by when both in class and asking directly....the average ill-effect of a healthy mature horse is a very wet and ammoniated stall. As long as the horse is drinking plenty of water, and has no congenital issues with the kidneys to begin with, there has not been an incidence where it has directly affected the kidneys. Older horses, where the kidneys are already aging, yes, you can OD and cause problems. Because the kidneys are already at a disadvantage because of the age and tearing down naturally. Young horses, there is a whole other issue with joints.



And please lets leave GOD out of it. I'd first off question if it was him/her.....and I was being sarcastic about that statement.

[wyldterv]

Originally Posted by Blistering Winds

STOREY gets their information from other sources. Plus that book is an older book and information to begin with.

Actually Storey's was copyrighted in 2003, so it's a fairly NEW and Current book, this is also it's first edition...As for the NRC requirements, if you read Melyni she constantly says that the NRC is long overdue for revamping AND more research needs to be done in many areas of equine nutrition in general, so the book is not a constant quote of the NRC.

Melyni Worth,PhD,PAS who is the author is known to be one of the world's leading Equine Nutritionists and has published papers on the subject.

While not the end all be all in Nutritional information, it is one of the only books availble to the lay person with CURRENT (in the past 5 yrs) information and is a good book for the average horse owner to pick up and be able to read AND comprehend the information provided.

My Vet and I have had some very long and interesting conversations regarding protein amounts and the right sources to procure it for in an Equine Diet. There is nothing wrong with feeding a degree of alfalfa, but it needs to be balanced with other forms of fibre when feeding it in large quantities and you DO run the risk of elevated incidents of kidney and urniary tract issues over a long term feeding of excess levels of protein if the animal is predisposed to issues to begin with.

Is feeding alfalfa a completely horrible idea? Of course not, but like all things, it needs to be balanced against what the horse's usability requirements are. Most horses should not have a constant diet of more then 50% alfalfa as it generally WILL result in excess urination which may lead (not ALWAYS lead mind you) to urinary tract and kidney issues AND which posses potential airway issues due to amonia fumes if the animal is kept in an area with poor drainage and poor ventilation.

It is not directly the alfalfa's fault but there are potential issues associated with the feeding of large quantities of alfalfa ... Just like ANY thing really, it's all about finding balance and moderation to what suits YOUR individual horses needs.