[Beeks]

If the pictures to prove all this abuse is happening, are available, then why post a "puppies and rainbows" video of the capture when you are against it and have documented proof of abuse?? Seems to me an "anti-Cloud herd capture" video would have had less pictures of people and fat healthy humanely treated horses, and more trampled foals, injured and broken animals and whatever else is allegedly happening.

I am not trying to say the abuse may not be legit, but if you have photographed proof of it, or video, then I would think you would pull alot more people to the cause by posting that, rather than the video posted here.

[nrhareiner]

Ok let say that no one rounds any of these horses up. They just leave them out there to be wild horses. Then what happens to them???? When there is no grass left for them to eat????

Rounding them up to adopt them out is better then letting them starve. Heck rounding them up and humanly slaughtering them is better then letting them starve. That is what WILL happen if something is not done to control the population. We do it with Deer and every other type of wild animal. As much as I love horses and love to see them wild. The fact is that there needs to be something done. Just b/c they are horses does not give them the right to eat everything they see and ruin the land for the next generation of horses and all the other animals that use that land.

[VivaLasVegas]

Originally Posted by Debbie z.

I

It's all over the news nationwide they were on The Today show The woman ho has been filming Cloud as soon as he was born. She was asked to take over this story by Marty Lauer. They were having a special prayer ceremony for the herd, the native americans who live there and see this herd everyday.
And as for your answer you may be a super hero around here. And take money for donations and volunterr. But this round up is not a local rescue for some neglected pony. And it's legit enough to have been taken to court to stop this infront of a federal judge. And if your allowed to stay up late past your bedtime you'd understand the adult world and problems going on outside this state. This is nationwide and I'm sure your hands are not in the middle of this illegal procedure. There's more than one BLM. This is not just a pretty pony story. The population is not in any danger as far as forage. If you watched the news and followed this story you would not be so ignorant. I am not employed by this organization nor is any answer gonna satisfy your young mind. Just a real horse owner who cares about the breed enough to reach out for support to sign a petition to protect them. All you had to do was decline and keep going. For someone your age you need more experience.If you choose to decline fine but please don't reply directly to me. Thanks to all who have an interest in these free spirits to remain free and unharmed.

Who is making the personal attacks on who? I came into the to put out the other side of the story and you took it as a personal attack. You then call me ignorant, poke at my age, and tell me not to respond? Geez... I was never attacking you, I was putting up the other side, you attacked me honey.

Oh and for trusting the news... Last week on Prime Time they had a special on how wonderful the BLM's Wild Horse and Burro Program is and what great horses they make, and this week they are bashing it. I follow my own research, not the mixed messages you can get from mass media.

[Debbie z.]

Originally Posted by Stormyheart6160

Well....the roundup has begun. They already have pics of horses with broken legs, and trampled newborn foals from the helicopters chasing them to the catch pens. Sure doesn't sound too humane to me???

What's even worse is.....Back in the early 90's, A Dave Cartoor was indicted on rounding up wild horses illegally, and transpoting them to a slaughter house in Texas. He plead guilty! Guess who the contractor is that is in charge of rounding up Clouds herd? Yep! Dave Cartoor!!!!

Just a little info the BLM doesn't want the public to know about. They'd rather have us all believe that Clouds herd is being rounded up in a safe way, and there are no injuries or deaths, and the people in charge of such, are actual horse lovers. Pfft!

Thank you for stepping up with your heart!! This is what I said earlier and was shot down verbally by Viva and just wanted the petition signed to help. It is amazing when the horse doesn't have a voice but that look in their eyes we need not ignore this illegal ******** and ******** it whats been posted from people on here. Thank you for stepping up on this topic and everyone else who speeks the truth!!

[Beeks]

Originally Posted by Debbie z.

Thank you for stepping up with your heart!! This is what I said earlier and was shot down verbally by Viva and just wanted the petition signed to help. It is amazing when the horse doesn't have a voice but that look in their eyes we need not ignore this illegal ******** and ******** it whats been posted from people on here. Thank you for stepping up on this topic and everyone else who speeks the truth!!

Actually, I find your tactics of gaining support very off putting. Because we do not blindly line up to sign a petition does not mean we are heartless horse haters. Out of the 190 horses in Clouds herd, 70 are being taken for adoption. His herd is NOT being eliminated and for you to think you can post your petition here and then bash everyone for questioning it's integrity leaves me feeling you are a very poor representative for your cause.

Viva and I have gone around on this subject many MANY times and have always managed to remain civil and even enjoy a dry type of friendship. Same with Stormyheart. YOU however, are far to emotional to be an effective campaigner for your foundation. You have left a very bad impression with your inability to level headedly lobby your cause.

I have learned nothing from you about the facts of Clouds herd reduction except that you have no idea how to remove your emotions from the argurment to effective distrubute factual information

[Debbie z.]

Originally Posted by Beeks

If the pictures to prove all this abuse is happening, are available, then why post a "puppies and rainbows" video of the capture when you are against it and have documented proof of abuse?? Seems to me an "anti-Cloud herd capture" video would have had less pictures of people and fat healthy humanely treated horses, and more trampled foals, injured and broken animals and whatever else is allegedly happening.

I am not trying to say the abuse may not be legit, but if you have photographed proof of it, or video, then I would think you would pull alot more people to the cause by posting that, rather than the video posted here.

YouTube - Roundup Wreck

[Beeks]

That was not video of the Pryor Mountain Horses, which is the subject of the petition and this thread. I am sure we could all dig up videos of trauma at round ups, but the general trauma of BLM round ups is not the subject of the petition.

[Debbie z.]

[quote=Beeks;4082590]Actually, I find your tactics of gaining support very off putting. Because we do not blindly line up to sign a petition does not mean we are heartless horse haters. Out of the 190 horses in Clouds herd, 70 are being taken for adoption. His herd is NOT being eliminated and for you to think you can post your petition here and then bash everyone for questioning it's integrity leaves me feeling you are a very poor representative for your cause.

Viva and I have gone around on this subject many MANY times and have always managed to remain civil and even enjoy a dry type of friendship. Same with Stormyheart. YOU however, are far to emotional to be an effective campagner for your foundation. You have left a very bad impression with your inability to level headedly lobby your cause.

I have learned nothing from you about the facts of Clouds herd reduction except that you have no idea how to remove your emotions from the argurment to effective distrubute factual information[

First of all it's not my campaign and not my petition. The cloud foundation had one to be signed. I along with thousands of others to pass it on and reach out to friends to add signitures. Don't sign it or do sign it it's a choice. And I make my own choices and not anyone elses. NEVER SAY NEVER. Petitions have helped situations in many other cases. I'm emotional in my passions and beliefs.The only bad impression is the BLM and anyone else involved with the legalities of this disaster. Everyones entitled to n opinion and beliefs and dreams and passions. I'm not here to teach you or anyone else or prove anything to anyone! This is a forum of which there are all kinds of horse people,topics and discussiions. As far asl evel headed myself and thousands of others are not level headed,news casters,filmographers,protesters,should I keep going!! The photographers who capture all growing moments,documentaries, television well, sorry for your ignorance of people. Everybody shows emotion different . I guess you and others have expectations of what people are supposed to act like,believe in,well I will continue to feel this way nomadder what. I can't believe on thisf orum for adoption/rescue I wouldever get this kind of response. Sorry for taking up your time.

[Debbie z.]

Originally Posted by Beeks

That was not video of the Pryor Mountain Horses, which is the subject of the petition and this thread. I am sure we could all dig up videos of trauma at round ups, but the general trauma of BLM round ups is not the subject of the petition.

Round ups are sugar coated. This is a round up off the website. I'm not digging upanything. Everyone says how good their taking care of well I have news for them. Their stuck in sandy pens and not one news clip or photo is any of them eating food or hay but in the backround is beautiful lush pastures 38,000 acres. Reality check needs to be done
And the sub of petition is the cruel treament,seperating herds from eachother. Foals getting seperated from mares. Horses getting jammed in a trucks and shipped off.
Howl ong is funding availablef or holding areas for these horses? They go to Slaughter and you know it.No adoption no life. Ther's no long linewaiting for these horses.

[Beeks]

When you post a petition urging everyone to sign it because your are passionate about the cause, you should be prepared to back it up in a way that educates and not alientates.

If you wanted nothing to do with discussing it, then you could have just posted the petition and said your are posting it out of principle, sign it or don't.

You and Viva have both posted information based on how your "side" sees it and somewhere in the middle resides the truth, which is what I am seeking. I am more interested in factual information so I do not make a poor decision based on emotion.

As far as forage goes. The Pryor Mountain horses being of good health right now, does not mean there is ample forage for all, and those to come. Winter is coming. Grass is going to die off. Cattlemen will be taking a huge portion of their grazers to market thus maintaining herd size and feeding hay to the remainder. If they did not, the cattle would die of starvation over the winter.

Clouds herd can be managed without ruining the reported spanish bloodlines. All other angulates in the wild have a hunting season to keep their numbers in check. If a percentage of these wild herds are not taken from the wild, they will choke themselves out.