[BoldRush]

No, they're not connected. These are just 2 different things that keep recurring on Dublin.

I AM going to have the vet out shortly, however I would love to hear any suggestions, opinions, and/or comments from everybody.

This is how the story goes...

Dublin is my 8yo thoroughbred gelding. Doesn't that just scream problem right there? Haha...kidding! Now I love this horse...and I am not giving up on him, so I'm trying to sort out everything as much as possible. I got him in January...but had known him, ridden him, shown him, and bonded with him for a year before that. It is now May...and I believe I have had 2 weeks of non-consecutive riding time. 3 days here, 2 days there, etc.

We got struck with lymphangitis before I got him...but we, including the vet, thought it was just a bacterial infection. It was on both legs. Back in March, I came into the barn in the morning and discovered both front legs sweating, steaming, oozing and were swollen to about 2x their original size. Only below the knee, though. Luckily the vet was coming out that day to do shots and coggins. He got looked at, she prescribed some antibiotics and a diagnosis of lymphangitis. I have gone on to discover that this condition is recurring, and will never go away but can be regulated. I have also discovered that it is caused by a depleted immune system and any little cut or abrasion can cause a flare up. The thing that was odd, was that he gets it on either both front legs, or both back legs. Not just one leg. So, the question I am asking here I guess, would be - does anyone have any suggestions or tips on how to regulate this? I have heard increase hay, electrolytes and oils. And decrease proteins. Does this make sense? I also wash his legs all the time whenever he comes in from the outdoors in case of any knicks he may have gotten.

#2 - This seems to be the worse of the two.

The first time this happened was at a winter show. I took him outside, was riding around and when I came back in, blood was streaming from his nose like I could not believe. Of course - compared to the amount of blood he actually has in his system, it was nothing. But it was enough to scare me...a lot! It stopped bleeding after about a half hour or so. The second time was a bit more scary...I was alone and was lunging him in the arena lightly. He was being very good so I asked him for a trot, and then a canter. After about a round of canter, I noticed him open his mouth and blood was coming out, as well as his nose. This had a bit more blood than the first time, and since it came out from the mouth - I was extremely scared. I don't know how to explain the amount that came out...but it was enough. He covered his boots that he was wearing in blood, too. 3rd time, was under saddle. I walked him for 20 minutes, and brought him inside. Noticed a small amount of blood coming out of his nostrils. A walk. 4th time was 2 nights ago, I put him out and started bathing a horse. When I was grazing it afterwards I heard him coughing...I know that when he coughs, he is bleeding. Sure enough, I go out there. Blood from the nose...blood from the mouth. Now since he has been coughing it up, I'm kinda nervous that it is more than just 'Exercise Induced' nosebleeds. If he's coughing it up, does that suggest it coming from the lungs? Any suggestions or ideas? I plan on getting him scoped...although that will probably cause another nosebleed. I'll risk it to find out what's wrong.

I apologize for the extremely long post. I am just so nervous about the nosebleeds and frustrated by the lymphangitis. I was hoping to show him this summer. But I am now giving him it all off, bringing him back super slow. It's about his health right now...not showing.

Thank you so much for reading this and offering your thoughts!

[pantha11]

There are a number of things you have to consider when dealing with lymphangitis....

Diet....reduction of high protein...replacing them with more good quality hay, using oils instead of grain based feeds.
Cleansing the horse from inside out....detoxification process and electrolytes to help cleanse and balance the system...herbs can help here.
And being alert of any new cuts/nicks your horse gets...(I think you understand this part)

[BoldRush]

Pantha - That's exactly the information I have found. Glad to see that it was discovered elsewhere as well! I have already decreased proteins, and brought in electrolytes. The feed I have for him is not grain based, it is pellets and extruded.

Any ideas on how to go through a 'detoxification process'? I was thinking of the Omega Alpha product 'Immune Plus' to bring up his immune system.

[pantha11]

I would be giving Linseed & Soya Oils to replace some or all grain based feeds as part of a reduced protein diet.

As for the herbs I would be looking at....
Burdock root...give 15-30 grams a daily, Cleavers..which should only be given for two weeks...give 10-15 grams daily & Dandelion...give a small handful daily in feed, to help reduce excess fluid.

Meadow Sweet gives comfort, and Milk Thistle aids in the detox.…a handful of each in feed.

Rosehips granules to help with circulation…..1 to 2 tablespoon in feed daily.

Echinacea-Give one handful 2 times a day in feed...this will help the immune system.

Your should be able to get these as dried herbs from most health food shops or order them on line.

[JBandRio]

I'm curious why you didn't have the vet out after the 2nd nosebleed where blood was coming out of his mouth

Gutteral pouch infections can cause progressively worse nosebleeds until the artery actually bursts becoming too weakened by the infection and the horse bleeds out. Repeated nosebleeds are not to be taken lightly.


What is the relationship between feeding oils and reducing lymphangitis? I haven't heard that one before. I'm also not sure what the benefit is of reducing protein - what are we talking about in the way of reduction?

What is the horse's diet?

[BoldRush]

I'm not too sure what the connection between any of the proteins and oils are either, I just read it in several places and thought to give it a shot. He didn't have an abnormally large amount of proteins in his diet in the first place, so he just got an increase as opposed to decreasing anything. I have read up on nosebleeds, and was quite worried about that occurence as well. I, personally, was looking to get the vet out, however I had some knowledgeable horse people come to say that it was not necessary to call the vet. Also - the nose and mouth are connected which was why the blood came from both locations.

His diet was 1/2 scoop of Purina Evolution Elite food 2x per day with one scoop of flax for a healthy coat. As well as a hay net full of hay.

His diet has now changed to the same amount of Purina Evolution Elite with a large scoop of electrolytes, with the little...measuring things...haha! Flax, and he is also on 30cc of Immune Plus 1x per day. He gets lots of hay now, as per the increase of hay. I also have been picking up some dandelions and throwing them into his feed, he loves the dandelions anyway...so it's like an extra treat for him!

I'm curious as to if vegetable oils would work for on his food?

The vet came out today to check everything out on Dublin while she was here for shots. Turns out the nosebleeds and lymphangitis actually COULD be connected. The antibiotic medication he was on, novotrimel(spl?), actually causes a low platelet count. Since he is a thoroughbred with blood vessels closer to the skin, and thin skin, if any irritation occurs, the bleeding is unable to be clotted because of low platelets. Since it is unable to be clotted it continues to flow out of his nose. This makes SO much sense, because he was getting antibiotics during all of these occurences. His blood was taken and we are checking it, JUST to be sure that is what it is. His recent lymphangitis "attack" is clearing up very nicely and he will be coming back into work slowly, but surely. If lymphangitis starts up again - novotrimel will not be the antibiotic in question any longer and we will move onto something else.

Thank you for all your help! I am awaiting blood results...and crossing my fingers!

[pantha11]

The reason you need to reduce certain protein...(most of which are in the grains), alfalpha is a body cleanser, kidney cleanser and blood purifier, infection fighter and natural deodorizer. It breaks down poisonous carbon dioxide and it is the richest land source of trace minerals. A very good spring tonic to support the liver.

When you detox a horse, the body will first try to expel waste from the intestinal tract and kidneys, when those areas are free from accumulations, then the liver is able to cleanse and do a better job filtering toxins from the blood via the hepatic artery,now some proteins make it harder and far less effective for the liver to cleans. Next, the blood is cleansed, thereby allowing nutrients to be more accessible to the cells and tissues.
Now why we detox......to clean out the horses system.

Lymph vessels are similar to blood vessels (arteries and veins) but instead of blood, a watery lymph fluid flows through them, this fluid is drained away, it removes toxins and breakdown products from damaged areas. The fluid is filtered through lymph nodes which also have an important role in fighting infection.
When damaged, they can no longer drain lymph fluid from affected areas which also means that the body cannot fight infection as well as it can with a healthy lymph system....we help this system by detoxing the horse, cleaning the system out.

[Ryle]

Ulcerative Lymphangitis

(caused by the same bacteria that causes pigeon fever)

Ulcerative lymphangitis is a contagious disease of horses and mules, characterized by the development of nodules along lymphatics in the region of the fetlock.
The disease occurs most commonly in tropical and subtropical countries and is infrequently seen in the United States except for California.
The main source of the causal bacterium is pus discharged from nodules. As mentioned, causal agent can survive on fomites and in the environment for months. The organisms gain entrance via wounds and abrasions usually in the fetlock area. The infection progresses slowly and the inflammation and swelling may cause considerable pain. The nodules, which may extend upward on the leg, eventually rupture leaving ulcers that exude greenish-tinged pus. Some infections persist and become chronic.
Diagnosis

The disease is clinically characteristic and where it is frequent, a laboratory diagnosis is not usually sought. A definitive diagnosis requires isolation and identification C. pseudotuberculosis.

• For culture: Pus is collected on a swab, preferably from an excised developing nodule. Discharging nodules may have considerable extraneous bacteria.

Treatment

• Penicillin G given IV alone or in combination with rifampin orally until lesions resolve ,then trimethoprim sulfa or rifampin is administered orally to prevent relapses,
• Some the nodules may be dealt with surgically.
• Heat packs, poultices and hydrotherapy; irrigation, and the application of ointments.

Prevention

• If feasible infected animals should be isolated. Avoid crowding and circumstances that contribute to injuries. Improvement in sanitation if indicated.

---A Concise Guide to Microbial and Parasitic Disease of Horses
G.R. Carter1 and E. Davis2
1Professor Emeritus of the Department of Medical Sciences and Pathobiology, Virginia-Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine, Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia, USA. 2Department of Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, Kansas State University, Manhattan, KS, USA.

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http://www.completerider.com/ucolora...INEQUINES.html

You can also have lymphangitis secondary to bone or joint infections, sarcoids, and several other types of infections infections including Rhodococcus Equi (though this is rare in adult horses)