[Cheryl Kirby]

I have a ten month old QH stallion colt named Gage, whom I have owned for just over two weeks. He has a stall in my barn and about a 20' x 30' fenced-in area that he spends his evenings in, and a 2 acre fenced-in lot that he spends his days in (with access to his stall at all times.)
Although I have been around horses for many years and have taken riding lessons for quite some time, I have never trained a horse. I have read countless books and articles, and beginning next week, I plan to have my riding instructor come by every couple of weeks to give me some pointers...NEVERTHELESS, I am the first to admit that I KNOW that raising a colt is challenging even for the experienced trainer, yet I have accepted this challenge and KNOW that I can do it. I am here on this forum to ask for advice on the following issues that have arisen, and please, no harsh words about my lack of experience to train a colt....I am learning and I am going to do all it takes to make the outcome positive.
I plan to have Gage gelded within the month, and also within a month or so I will have my round pen installed. I have been told countless times that round pen exercises will help his demeanor, and I am going to get the John Lyons video series and watch it carefully before I begin.
In the meantime, I need some advice. Gage's disposition is sweet and gentle, but within the past week, he has begun to challenge me, which is to be expected. But I am confused about which training methods to follow, and I have to take his age into account. His "lipping" has turned into "nipping." The trainer at the equestrian center advised me to massage his nose and lips annoyingly every time he nips, to annoy him and make him not want to nip anymore. However, the more I massage, the more he wants to nip me! Now do you think he is too young to use the John Lyons' method- when he nips -(make a big deal out of it, take an agressive stance and loud noise, pop on chest with crop or newspaper, etc., then go about your business.).... or do you think this method is appropriate for playful nipping of a 10-month old? I know he is just testing me and he is not being "aggressive," but I have to admit that the nipping is getting more frequent and he is now starting to do it every time I pick up his feet also. Just last night I took a rolled up newspaper with me and tied him up, (which he doesn't mind at all) and groomed him gently and patiently, then every time he went to nip, I bopped him on the crest and said NO. After a while, he did seem to stop. Is this appropriate training?
Also, he used to lead WONDERFULLY, what a perfect little obedient guy he was, now he is being very stubborn. Saturday I started the "backing up" exercises, in which I said "Shh Shh" and tapped him gently on his chest until he took a step back, then I would stop the tapping. Then, again, "Shh Shh", (he didn't move) tap- tap, he'd take a step back. All seemed to be going well, then, shh, shh, tap, tap, he REARS and bolts away. He panicked, and I thought I was doing everything right.
I know I need professional help and DEFINITELY plan to get it, hands-on training so I'll be sure I am doing everything right so as not to confuse the poor guy, I promise!
Any thoughts until my trainer comes next week? I know what I should probably do....just stop trying anything until the trainer gets there! Any suggestions or thoughts will be welcomed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HorseCrazy1981]

When my colt started nipping, I just popped his nose lightly, waited a few minutes then went back to my previous exercises with him. I have a loud voice so they definitely pay attention when I yell "No!" or "Stop!". Everytime he nipped, I popped his nose and walked away. He learned quickly that his nipping was pushing me away, and since he loved attention, he quit nipping.

[probarrelracer]

First of all, I would try Clinton Anderson or Pat Parelli's videos before John Lyons. (I have seen them all) Yes, you should make a big deal when he nips you. Say No strongly (don't scream), and slap his chest. Do NOT hit him anywhere near his face. Make sure not to look him in the eyes when correcting him, as he will take this as a challenge, and colts don't like to lose. It would make him act out more. As far as the backing, just keep asking him in the same way. Try putting pressure on the halter first before tapping his chest. If he acts out, ignore it, wait for it to stop (while calmly, but firmly holding the lead), then just ask again. Eventually he'll realize he is wasting his energy by fighting you because it does not help him to get away or get you to stop. Let me know if you have any more questions, and Congratulations on the new colt!

[Blistering Winds]

I suggest popping the nose. (one because that is where the "issue" is coming from). If you do it right, you won't make a head shy horse, and it takes only once or twice, depending on how quick a learner your horse is and how hard you hit. (don't bloodly the horse, but make it mean something).

After the horse has behaved, and done something right, love on the horse around the face and muzzle where you hit so he learns that popping the nose is only done if he does something bad like nipping.

I do that on nipping horses, never had a head shy horse yet.

[HorseCrazy1981]

Yeah, that playful nipping can become hard biting if not taken care of quickly. I made my colt stop when he just started lipping us and our clothes. Plus it is a habit that other horses can pick up simply by watching him get away with it. And it is much more painful when a grown horse comes after you with their mouth wide open and ears back.

Oh yeah, we tried popping my colt on the chest or lower neck at first, but he learned to react quickly and back away after he lipped or nipped us so we wouldn't pop him. Once we started that little tap on his nose, he quit, and he was never head shy.

<small>[ April 08, 2004, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: HorseCrazy1981 ]</small>

[Cheryl Kirby]

Thanks for all the advice! I will heed your words.
Probarrelracer, what do you prefer about Parelli or Anderson techniques over Lyons?
Are they as detailed about what to do at the very basic level that I am at?
I have read a lot of Lyons' stuff, but really wanted to see training in action on videos.....so I will look into the Parelli or Anderson training tapes now. Thanks. Will update you on my progress!
(As far as your replies about popping him, it did seem to stop him from nipping when I popped him on his chest the other day, although I haven't worked with him much since then...but if he persists then I will do it on his nose. I think he is confident and handled enough that doing this won't make him head shy....THANKS AGAIN!)

[drafts]

I am not a big fan of natural horsemanship. When your baby bolted, you were fine, sounds like he was just exhibiting some normal baby behavior. They have such short attention spans,a nd can get bored easily, and sometimes spook over things that normally don't bother them.
Unfortunately, my guy is a nipper. I tap him on the nose and tell him no in a very firm voice. I don't smack or beat him, just tap him with enough force to let him know I mean business.
After few moments of not having to correct him, I make a big deal- with exagerated hand motions-of rubbing his face and giving scratches. This is just to show him that every time I raise my hands near him he is not getting punished.
Good Luck with whatever method you choose and Have agreat day!

<small>[ April 08, 2004, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: drafts ]</small>

[proBarrel racer]

I just like their methods better. I like Clinton Anderson the best. He is not Natural Horsemanship crazy, but uses it mixed with common sense training. He doesn't think that we have to walk on eggshells, but we don't have to bloody them up either. I just find that Lyons' techniques sound better on paper than in the pen. I mean, what happens when you get out of the round pen? wink

[wolfden]

Hi Cheryl, Welcome to the world of horses! I have 2 babies about the same age as yours and my little fellow just got gelded last weekend. I have a Pat Parelli book and I think it has a lot of great ideas in it. The one thing I don't like is that while it tells you of some of the negative things to expect the horse to do to get out of doing what you are asking for.. it does not really tell you what to do to counter their evasive efforts.. perhaps the video's are better.

[Cheryl Kirby]

Hi to you Wolfden, and thanks to everybody else for more great info. It's so cool to have everybody's advice on this subject, it makes me realize that every horse is unique and a technique that works on one horse may not work on the next. I feel like the more I get to know Gage, the more confident I will feel about what "method" to use with him. I will definitely look into all of the video sets before I purchase one...and hopefully I can attend a Parelli seminar soon.

I wish that I had another horse for Gage to be with, I have dogs and chickens but they are on the other side of the fence from Gage, Gage tries to run and follow the dogs when they are near but they are rarely out near his fence to keep him company....I have heard that a goat is good company for a horse, and low maintenance, is that true? I might have to get him a little goat friend.
When I walk into Gage's pasture, he is excited to see me and he sometimes runs at me, or bucks and bolts around me playfully, which has intimidated me a couple of times and I know I need to stand my ground and be firm --but I have to admit, I have never had a huge colt galloping towards me.....from what I have been reading, I believe the next lesson I need to teach him is the "keep your distance" lesson, and to make him always stay away from me and not crowd me, although I hate to do that and miss out on the hugs and snuggles he gives me.....I guess there will be time for that once he knows who's boss.....

I am so excited to be a horse owner, this is my lifetime dream come true - finally at the ripe old age of 33. My riding instructor is coming over Monday to work with me and Gage for a bit, which I am happy about. I am anxious to have someone who knows more than me to come by. She is extremely gentle with her horses and every one I have seen her work with has been successful, so she must know what she is doing. She is raising a PMU foal about the age of mine right now, and she is coming along well. She is the one who uses the "nose massaging technique" for nipping, and it seems to have worked for her filly. But I feel like since my guy is a stallion, it is possible that he may need more aggressive measures. (And yes, I am getting him gelded soon.) Frankly, I was getting frustrated with massaging his nose all the time which just seemed to irritate him and make him try to bite me more. But, we'll see what my instructor says and then I will go from there, using her advice along with everybody here's advice. Believe, me, I'll be back with more questions! THANKS! red_hors