[shsmith]

Sue,
In reading through the thread regarding the overweight horse and the weight loss. I'm interested on how you can see these warning signs.

I have been concerned for one of my geldings that I think is overweight.
Many people say he's just "fleshy", and only one person that I know of says he's too big.

I've put him in a corral and night, then turn out in the day, and even at times kept him corral'd for a week, fed a ration only.

He is on NO sweet feed. The only thing other than free choice pasture is Front Runner horse lick.

He hates being penned up, and chews the boards so I worry about him colicing on that and then I let him out for a while.

I feel like a catch 22. But I'm concerned about him. He does have a thick neck, and the last few days I have noticed his sheath is "thicker" looking than normal.

Otherwise he is pastured 24/7 with the others. He is quite energetic and loves to run and play. I wouldn't say he's sloth'y, just a bigger horse.

By the way he's a 3yr old Morgan.

What's your advice?

[CJ]

Im not Sue but the "Fat sheath" thing could be a bad warning sign!
The guy who owned the saddle shop I worked for had a pair of Appaloosa geldings. One was also heavy/ fleshy/ fat/ round, well fed but not over fed.
He got a fat sheath and it was an indication that the fat storage in his body had gotten out of kilter, food was going into Fat instead of Energy. He died of a heart attack because the heart also has a layer of fat, which is usually nominal and protective, but in this case got thick and caused cardio pulmonary problems, fatally.
Get the most Competant vet and meatbolic experieced people you can get a hold of on this, asap, IMHO.

[Shotgun93]

Also not SueB, but I can tell you a little.
The morgan breed tends be predispositioned to metoblic disorders. Insulin resistance, CUshings and thyroid problems are the most common.
Your first step would be to compare your horse to the BCS and find his score. You can actually feel him, so you would probably be able to best score him, but a picture of him would help us out.

Generally, it's too much starch, calories, and sugar that causes obesity in horses, along with lack of exercise. Other factors such as IR contruibute it and make it very hard to get the weight off.
I don't know much about Front Runner, is it molasses based? Other than that, you need to get him tested if you are concerned and start taking steps to limiting his pasture times. Soaking grass hay can help reduce the sugars and starches, and it will give him something to do.
But I would like to see a pic first, and go from there. Some morgans just have bigger necks.

[JBandRio]

A picture, from the side, and maybe a closer up of his neck, would help.

The puffy sheath can indeed be a sign of insulin resistance - again, it's fluid retention (edema) that is the cause in the case of IR.

He needs a regular diet - no week out of the pasture, than back on it, no nights out of the pasture, then back on it 24x7.

Assuming IR is the deal here (and being a Morgan, and the symptoms you describe, it's a good probability), then it will be a matter of firstly determing how much grass, based on the season even, he can tolerate.

The easiest thing to do is dry lot him with low carb hay for several weeks and see what you get, then start slowly introducing grass and see if/where you hit a point where he starts to look puffy again. If that makes him miserable though, then, since it doesn't sound like, at this point anyway, the problem is severe, you could muzzle him 24x7 for a few weeks and see what happens. If the "fat" you are seeing is edema, it should start to visibly go away to some degree.

In one instance you say "fed a ration only." and then you say he's fed no sweet feed. What is your "ration"? Just his hay? Or is it another type of concentrated feed? If it's any type of grain, with or without molasses in any amount, I would stop feeding that immediately. If you need something to mix supplements with, use a handful or two of beet pulp or alfalfa pellets or BOSS.

I have a horse right now who must be muzzled 24x7 given my current pasture situation. Spending one night without it means he's ouchy on his feet for a few days. Ideally he probably needs to spend several hours a day in a dry lot, but I don't have that setup, and he's not mine, so... He'd probably also benefit greatly from Magnesium supplementation, but again, he's not mine, I'm not getting paid... I might have to do that though, just to experiment

The Mag supplementation is something you can also do, but sometimes it's easier to just do one thing at a time so you can judge the reaction. If this were a severe case, then ideally you'd do all the possible IR treatments at once before you hit a laminitic stage.

I think I'm rambling now, so I'll stop

[Sue B]

I'm not Sue either...but who cares....

Originally Posted by shsmith

Sue,
In reading through the thread regarding the overweight horse and the weight loss. I'm interested on how you can see these warning signs.

In general, the symptoms that I see aren't so much seen as felt. However, a cresty neck is easily seen...as is a swollen sheath/udder. In the case of most horses I deal with...I put my hands all over them feelling for "fat" pads behind shoulders/below withers, on tail head, and sometimes on ribs/back area. I feel daily for abnomal swelling....midline under the belly of mares, check inside upper hind legs/lower hind legs for edema, overall look to body for "puffyness". The crest, I check by cupping my hand over the top, or in worse cases placing the palm where the nect ends and the crest starts....I use this to constantly take a rough measurement of the "up and down" of the edema in the crest....most change daily if the horse is not stable. I also check the amount of edema in these areas...are they soft or firm....if soft, that is a sign of improvement/stablization in severe cases.

To determine if the neck is just fat/thick or if it is cresty, I use a simple line that can be seen/felt down the neck in all by the most severe cases (of crestyness, not necessarily meaning severity in the metabolic disorder). The line can generally be seen at the top of the neck near the poll and at the bottom of the neck in front of the withers. You can feel or see a slight indentation where the neck ends and the crest begins. Following connect the dots, you whould be able to make a fairly straight line down the neck from top to bottom....all that falls below is neck, all that falls above is crest. This "line" may disappear in the middle where the crest is generally more severe. If you look at the horse in the "fat to fit" thread, you will see this line as a shadow on the pic and easily be able to tell the crest from the neck....it is still rather large.


I am concerned as JB is about the rapid changes in diet that you are imposing on this horse. I would also recommend that you either do dry lotting full time, part time (x hrs out/x hrs in...but not staggered in and out), or probably best of all get a grazing muzzle and let the hrose exercise by playing with its buddies, yet limiting its access to grass.

I am also wondering what the "ration" is that you refered to.

Not all horses exhibit all of these symptoms....some exhibit them and test negative for any metabolic disorders....but yet, will founder if not put on a resticted diett. By, restriction, I don't mean taking about calories...I mean taking away starches and sugars as much as possible.

You can get more info on grasses and grazing and metabolic horses at www.safergrass.org.

[shsmith]

alrighty, I have posted a couple of pics, they're not from today, but were taken a short while ago. The best I can do considering my cable is missing .
As I mentioned, he is not getting ANY grain whatsoever, the ration I was referring to was the hay I was feeding him while he was penned.
I did feel concerned that it wasnt good for him to be in and out like that, however under my circumstances I did not know what else to do. I was really getting concerned about his weight.

With a grazing muzzle - will he need constant supervision? I do work full time, and cannot watch him constantly.

Take a look at the pics on my origonal post and let me know what you think.
Thanks sooo much!
Sharon

[JBandRio]

Can you get better pictures soon Can't really tell much with these, sorry.

Muzzles are made to come off relatively easily should the need arise. Sometimes it's need by horse design The IR horse I have (not confirmed by testing, mind you, but he sure is behaving like a mild one at least) has his muzzle on 22 hours a day, most of it unsupervised, and has been for about 2 months now. The all-in-one muzzles either have velcro that will let go, or a breakaway strap. If you get just the nose part, you can attach it to whatever safety halter you feel comfortable with. That said, horses ARE horses, and can find a way to hurt themselves on anything - that's my disclaimer

[shsmith]

[quote=Shotgun93]Also not SueB, but I can tell you a little.
The morgan breed tends be predispositioned to metoblic disorders. Insulin resistance, CUshings and thyroid problems are the most common.
Your first step would be to compare your horse to the BCS and find his score. You can actually feel him, so you would probably be able to best score him, but a picture of him would help us out.

His BCS is a 5, which is "good" on the chart. When you look at him from behind, he looks good. It's from the side that he looks so much larger. He just has a general overall thick appearance.
I can feel his ribs, but he is still fleshy.

[shsmith]

aha, I can take pics and insert the memory card to my palm pilot and then beam them to the computer. I will go out to see him and take pics right away!!!

[Shotgun93]

He doesn't look all that bad to me, he is a little thick, but some morgans are. I can't really see his neck though, can you get a pick of his neck with him looking forward?