[Blistering Winds]

And those rounded up lose some of their "survival" and "fear" of humans and end up with a whole OTHER set of problems now that they know food is readily available and they don't have to search, they'll approach civilization, endangering themselves and others.


There is more to this than you seem to think about.

[Berlunz]

part of the problem of the "unadoptables" is just the sheer number. You can put food on a plate and serve a person with it over and over, but eventually they get full. From there on, it wont matter if the food is on a silver platter, free or dressed up to look pretty or even tasty. Once a person is so full they cant take it, they just wont want more. You can rotate out the horses as much as you want, will it mean more horses adopted? Possibly, but not nearly as much as is needed. Like for every 10 you rotate maybe 1 more will be adopted than prior. Thats not enough to fix this problem. The market is flooded, you can get a nicely bred TB or QH for free in most places. Horses that are already trained (to an extent), and bred nicely, are being given away. So why would someone want to adopt a mustang who has hundreds of conformation flaws and wont let you touch them, and you have to do more than just the simple basic training any domestic untrained horse would require.

Its like walking up to someone and saying "Do you want the cd player or do you want the mp3 player?". Yes both will play music but the mp3 is easier to because it keeps all the songs on it and not cds and you can pick and choose what songs you want instead of having to buy them all. Can a mustang make a good horse? Some of them, yes. Anyone coming in and saying "mustangs deserve as much of a chance as other horses". I am sorry, but as sentimental as that is, and as lovely of a thought as that is... why would we encourage horses with conformational flaws to continue to breed over ones who have been selectively bred to avoid such flaws. How often do people whine and complain about the market being flooded, and byb being such a bad thing because they are putting horses with bad temperment and bad conformation into the market... well what do you think a lot of mustangs are? Wild mustangs are like a giant byb herd of all sorts of issues. Do some come out good? Yep, when the byb stud gets loose with the nice mare next door (the horses that were released into the herds) you get some okay looking ones... but nothing that could compare to a horse that is carefully evaluated and bred.

[vmarsfreak]

I would just like to say that this no longer seems like a debate(and never really did in my opinion). It seems more and more like an attack...I know on another board the moderators will lock the threads like this when they become just too much...I'm just putting in the idea that you can't change a person's opinion. I'm sorry, but Stormyheart, you won't be able to change any of the other's opinions on this and guys, you won't be able to change Stormyheart's. This is just the same thing over and over. Frankly, I personally think that this thread should just be closed if that is a possibility...

[dlindsey2000]

Originally Posted by vmarsfreak

I would just like to say that this no longer seems like a debate(and never really did in my opinion). It seems more and more like an attack...I know on another board the moderators will lock the threads like this when they become just too much...I'm just putting in the idea that you can't change a person's opinion. I'm sorry, but Stormyheart, you won't be able to change any of the other's opinions on this and guys, you won't be able to change Stormyheart's. This is just the same thing over and over. Frankly, I personally think that this thread should just be closed if that is a possibility...

yep i agree, i actually thought the same quite a few post ago, maybe now it will be closed. you cant change someones opinion...we all have our own. but we all can help others think this stuff through. my opinion?....getting rid of the mustangs is wrong in my eyes, but where will we pu them so they can live and have better lives? no one has an answer for that, because there arent enough people to take them in and not enough land to leave them be. so what can be done for them? that is the REAL question

[Berlunz]

Originally Posted by vmarsfreak

I would just like to say that this no longer seems like a debate(and never really did in my opinion). It seems more and more like an attack...I know on another board the moderators will lock the threads like this when they become just too much...I'm just putting in the idea that you can't change a person's opinion. I'm sorry, but Stormyheart, you won't be able to change any of the other's opinions on this and guys, you won't be able to change Stormyheart's. This is just the same thing over and over. Frankly, I personally think that this thread should just be closed if that is a possibility...

for it to be an attack we would have to be going after stormy on a personal level. For instance, insulting her as a person, going after her horses/things she does etc. This debate is something that is rather hard to debate, but I had to do it in another thread but oddly enough in that one everyone was against the euthenasia but me, I still debated it to the end. You are right, in the end you can't change a persons opinion. So does that mean we should all stop giving our own sides of the story? Stop trying to change things? Stop even bothering to debate? Instead I think we should take the mind set of being more open and listen to what others have to say when we cant come up with an accurate response. For instance, if I am debating with someone and they say something I cant contradict or prove wrong, then most peoples first instinct is to change the subject or start going after personal attacks and using logical fallacies to attempt to win.. but it would be better if people would concede points and be more open to changing their minds and listening to something someone else has to say.

I think it should remain open as people are still debating it (and in quite a civil manner compared to other threads around here). Its not anyone attacking anyone else, we have to be careful to separate things we debate from personal issues and opinions. People are saying "Dont euthenize its cruel!" and we are explaining why it needs to be done, they then bring up a defense for their side and vice versa. I actually think this thread is working out decently. People are coming up with reasons and working through things logically quite well. I can only hope that this thread sparks a few epiphanies for people.

[Top Dun]

LOL This one is TAME compared to some of the Slaughter threads.

Originally Posted by vmarsfreak

I would just like to say that this no longer seems like a debate(and never really did in my opinion). It seems more and more like an attack...I know on another board the moderators will lock the threads like this when they become just too much...I'm just putting in the idea that you can't change a person's opinion. I'm sorry, but Stormyheart, you won't be able to change any of the other's opinions on this and guys, you won't be able to change Stormyheart's. This is just the same thing over and over. Frankly, I personally think that this thread should just be closed if that is a possibility...

[Fallon]

*This is rather blunt, but it is my view on the whole situation.*

We're talking about 70,000 +/- horses here. Wild horses, not ones that can be led here or there or anything else. Quite frankly, while the BLM has made mistakes, they have done a fairly decent job of managing all those animals. No one who tries to manage and keep track of 70,000 +/- horses is going to do a perfect job at it. Not gonna happen.

And let's not forget the few hundred (maybe) that are adopted every year that the BLM has to keep track of for a year. There is just not enough man power to do a perfect job.

Something people are forgetting, the BLM HAS ALWAYS had the right to euthanize any wild horse whenever, however they deem necessary. They have not done so to this point (except for the occasional injury euthansia). They have always had the right to do so.

They've tried birth control on the mares and gelding the stallions and none of it works well enough. In order to control the number of animals on the ranges, they must gather the horses and attempt to adopt them out. The ones not adopted are put into permanent holding facilities. Where they stay for the next 20 years or so. How many people can afford to have 30,000 +/- pasture puffs for 20 years? Why should the government have to do so?

There is just not enough money to feed these animals. If a private citizen has too many horses and can't afford to feed them, the first thing everyone says is to give it away, sell it, or if you can't, euthanize it. I see a big double standard coming up here... The government can't afford to feed these horses, plain and simple, no one is adopting them and by law they can't just give away the horses until they've been to 3 adoption events and passed over. But by law at that time the horses have to go to the permanent holding facilities to await a buyer (if one ever shows up). So, a private citizen is allowed to euthanize a horse that they can't afford to feed and that no one wants, but the government can't do so with a horse that they own?

Adopting from the BLM is actually fairly easy to do. You can do it all online from your computer. But handling a wild horse is not easy to do. With the economy the way it is, no one is going to want a cheap $125 horse that you can't touch when you can go to the auction and get one for less that you can handle. Hay prices are rising, people can't afford horses anymore. That's reality.

If you don't like that the government is considering doing something that they have always had the right do to in the first place, well then put up or shut up. Open your pastures and pens up and take on 500 horses.

Seriously, everyone is whining because the horses are starving on the ranges and say that more gathers need to be done to protect them. At the same time NO ONE (okay not many - adoptions are down by 80% over last year) are taking on these horses that they screamed had to get off the ranges. What's gonna happen when the money runs out?

I have nothing against mustangs, I have two of them. But I also live in reality and I don't look at the world through rose colored glasses.

Something has to give. Period. I'd rather they were euthanized to get the numbers down to a more controllable number than have them starve to death.

[dlindsey2000]

bravo fallon! i applaude you in your stance. i beleive that is pretty much how most of us feel. sums it all up quite nicely.

[denraydar]

Excellent post Fallon.

I am not commending the post simply because I agree with it. It is well written, with conscientious forethought, and sound logic.

As for any thoughts on closing the thread because it is a controversial subject? No way. There is nothing wrong with the presentation of facts or in the voiceing of opinions in the spirit of driving others to at least consider another point of view. Civilized debate is a completely necessary mechanism for raising awareness to social and or political issues. If we refuse to discuss the BLM's predicament regarding the excess horses will the problem go away? No. They will still stand in small pens and slowly starve while bureaucrats sit on capital hill getting wined and dined by lobbyists for various special interest groups who have personal or financial interest in the Horses or the land or anything connected with this issue.

Horses need to eat everyday, they should not have to wait in their current environment/situation for people to decide what to do. They should have the opportunity to live as they were intended to, with exercise out of a pen,and a daily supply of food and water for the health of their body and spirit. If this is not possible then they should not be made to suffer. It is inhumane to continue with the current plan of penning them up with insufficient food and water and care.

To those oppposed to euthanizing the surplus horses I propose this question; When you picture the mustangs that you are interested in keeping alive do you see them healthy and free running, spirit intact or do you see them as they are, skinny, some injured, caged up and broken spirited? To turn out the penned horses would be to endanger those that are still free rangeing. There is not enough forage for all of them.

Problems are not solved by refusing to address them. What we are all debating here is what is best for the horses and the people (us) who are responsible for them and this nation. The government can be influenced by individuals, it happens every day.

Read what others think about this subject, research it, think about it, ask yourself if you have a viable solution, then contact the bureaucrats who do have control over the horses and the land. State your views and potential solutions.

The goal of civil debate is not just about changing an opponents opinion, it is done as a method of finding the best solution to a problem.