[suncolorsranch]

So somehow there is a double registered filly with PHBA and ABRA and the filly is palomino with a dun gene but "looks" red dun. Therefore the owners have got her papers with both ABRA and PHBA (and IBHA but who’s counting), and have taken her to both World Shows.

Now my opinion is that rules are rules whether we agree, disagree, like, or dislike them...rules are rules...much like laws. You don't just get to pick and choose the ones you want to follow. So with that I don't agree that they should have got papers on her with both and they are well known breeders so they know better so they are responsible, however on the flip side the associations need to take some more care too in my opinion in enforcing their own rules and looking into registrations in more detail in situations when color is so questionable and require color tests be submitted. Heck if I had not done a color test on one of my horses, proving he was buckskin with a dun gene, AQHA was heck bent on declaring him grey (he has NO grey gene) but he had very heavy frosting and so their registration staff wanted him registered grey. Go figure.

So with that some responsibility needs to be on owners to be sure they know the color of their horses as well as the associations need to step up too.

No a whole other issue is, well if the filly has dun gene she is a dun. Well that would mean every grey, roan, cremello, perlino, and other color that ALSO has the dun gene would be a dun then too....they have to draw the line somewhere I guess and ABRA draws it at buckskin, red dun, dun, grullo...period. Now agree or disagree, does not matter it is the colors and the rules.

So all kinds of interesting angles and room for interpretation and opinions so what is yours?

Read comments pages to see the controversy:

http://www.youtube.com/comment_servl...%3DPGKsSWubc10

[ACCphotography]

They need to pick a side and stick with it IMO. That being said, we can't expect them to require test results on every single horse and there are GOING to be horses who slip in due to their phenotype not exactly matching their genotype. Really, it's unavoidable. Yes this seems unfair to those who have tried to do the same thing, but the difference is the phenotype, and this IS a phenotype registry.

[bnttyra]

I am sorta confused. The horse in the youtube that came up with that link looks buckskin, not palomino or red dun.

So the issue is that they registered her with both the PHBA and ABRA right? And the PHBA only allows palominos and the ABRA only allows buckskins, duns, grullos. Do I have that right?

What about smokey black in the ABRA? Sorta off topic but I think I remember reading something about that being accepted.

[bnttyra]

Oh and since these are color registries, how far do they ask you to go to prove the color genetic make up or do they just do it off of what the horse looks like?

[luvmyride]

I would have to side on the fence that every horse that is color tested dun IS dun. In this situation I would say that the PHBA is in error, they should have never let a dun horse in their registry. On the flip side, it would mean that horses that don't look dun would be allowed in the registry.

If the purpose of the registry is to have a place to register a dun horse, why wouldn't they be allowed? With color mutations being so crazy, and things that looks one color are actually another, they need to be very specific with what they do and don't want for the registry.

[Appylvr]

There was a thread the other day about this... unfortunately due to my stupid dial-up I can't watch the video...

I think it would be a lot easier on owners of Dunskins and Dunalinos if the AQHA and APHA would add a few more colors and register them as such. I think showing both genes is important, if you register as dun and the horse throws a palomino it's going to make the registry freak out... and vice versa... been there, seen that...

The sire to my gelding was registered as a sooty buckskin. When he threw a grullo out of a black TB mare the APHA made the owner change his registration to Dun. Well... why didn't they then make him change it back when he threw a palomino out of a sorrel? I think it's dumb.

I see what you're saying though... you think the owners of the filly shouldn't have registered her with the dun association? I would think the dun association should accept horses with dun characteristics... no matter what other colors they have.

I think as we learn more about colors and see new colors appearing then the registries should keep up with the times.

[LotsOfSavvy]

I chose NOT to register Hollywood with PHBA even though I may have been able to photograph him to hide the stripe and get it done. There are plenty of horses that have done it....I think even one that is a PHBA Champion in halter.

Hollywoods papers just came back from the AQHA.. he is now correctly listed as a "Red Dun" and in the notes section it says that he carries champagne. Despite the fact that he is registered as a red dun (which he is)...he doesn't fit ABRA's color requirement.

I chose to be honest and not register with either. IMO...a loss for them and more money in my pocket...which I will then distribute to AQHA and whatever other organization WILL permit my stallion to show.

IMO I think everybody should play by the rules. But that seldom seems to happen in the horse show industry.

[suncolorsranch]

I agree that is the reason this happened and due to it and all the others who get in and those that have the same colored horse that do not due to rules, I am wondering if it is finally time for rule changes or more specifics at least, and/ or more genetic test to be required now if horses have certain colored parents that could make them multiple colors? Things change and maybe this is one that is in need of change? It’s obvious that an honor system would not work which is unfortunate.

I don't know the answer or pointing fingers really just looking at all angles and trying to see if others have ideas of how to make things more fair and more importantly, more accurate. As well as know if it is that much of an issue to others who show and register with these associations? I guess if you don't this thread really does not apply and your opinion is not really relative but feel free to comment anyway.

So any ideas anyone?

[suncolorsranch]

Originally Posted by bnttyra

I am sorta confused. The horse in the youtube that came up with that link looks buckskin, not palomino or red dun.

It's the 2nd horse on the video.

[suncolorsranch]

Originally Posted by luvmyride

I would have to side on the fence that every horse that is color tested dun IS dun. In this situation I would say that the PHBA is in error, they should have never let a dun horse in their registry. On the flip side, it would mean that horses that don't look dun would be allowed in the registry.

If the purpose of the registry is to have a place to register a dun horse, why wouldn't they be allowed? With color mutations being so crazy, and things that looks one color are actually another, they need to be very specific with what they do and don't want for the registry.

The horse is not bucksin or dun really, she is palomino really with a dun gene (if I read all that stuff right on YouTube)...so not bay dun or buckskin or grullo or even red red...so she is not an ABRA color and according to PHBA since she has a dun gene showing she is not to be PHBA either if I have my facts straight.


I sort of agree that a horse with a dun gene should be dun. However does that mean you would call all the greys, perlinos, roans, etc with a dun gene too "duns"? Have to draw the line I guess...she is on the other side of the line with the grays, roans, etc (not an accepted color by either association) much like cremello and perlino wasn't with AQHA many many years... in my opinion. Not saying is right or a correct rule or that it doesn't need to be changed it is what it is right now is all.