[CJ]

My friends got an ad on Justaberry Bey, who is relatively local. (Ad also for him in Classifieds, w/ video). They have two distinctly different mares in the barn, and we were having a discussion about which if either was a better candidate to consider sending. Hypothetically only, what do you think?
One mare goes back thru Fadjur, Natez, Fadl And Raseyn. Her sire is a Moniet. The other mare is Aladdin, Bask on the sire's &, El Ajzaa and AlMarah on the dam's side.
For some reason I think the Fadjur mare would be the better choice, being a lil typier. But I'd like to know what the geneology pros think. (Remember this is just theoretical.. PS I have more complete pedigrees, if needed.)

[Sandra-A1]

Are you talking about the grey Arabian Stallion:

VJ Justaberry Bey
Justafire DGL (Afire Bey V)
X
Berrymerri Bey V (Huckleberry Bey)

In theory....it still depends on what you are breeding for...

If you breeding to add more and perhaps "fix" into your breeding program "Arabian Type" then if the Fadjur mare has extreme type then naturally that would be the way to go since the Tones breeding program did produce some very typy Arabians.

If your wanting to produce "moving" Arabians with, hopefully (in theory) a lot of knee and forearm lift and CP/EP or even Park elevated type of movement then you would go with the *Aladdin/*Bask breeding.... Al Marah also produces some "moving" horses as well as all-around athletes.

Speaking for myself... and just going by the bloodlines you have named...and knowing Justafire DGL as I do I would probably go with the *Aladdin/*Bask bred mare.

In the end, however, the real decision still comes down to CONFORMATION, intended use, then bloodline and genetic prepotency of both the mare & stallion.

[hrnarabians]

It depends on your mares and what you want to do.

If I remember his video correctly he is over all very pretty...but could have a more "classic" face and more hip. Not so sure about his legs as I would need to see those better....

So if it was me...and I was breeding to him....I would personally go with a mare who moves very well with a very pretty head and excellent hip. For me I would try for that beautiful english moving Arabian.

However...you could also go with a mare that is as athletic or MORE than he is for a potential performance horse who may....or probably not....be able to go into the Halter ring and do extremely well. You'd be looking for more of a performance only horse....where I personally am looking for the ENTIRE picture.

OR

You could take a mare that is gorgeous over all, exudes arabian type...but does not move particularly well and hope that her type and his motion come together....that option is more of a **** shoot than anything.

[CJ]

Thanks you guys. Yes, Sandra that's the colt I meant. I agree/d that the Fadjur mare would probably produce a more typey get, as her mother was very typey and she has a more pronounced jibbah, than the Aladdin/ Bask mare. Raps' breeder called Al Marahs 'very good 'doing' horses," all-arounders.
HRN:I was a lil disappointed with the distant shots of the video, also wishing there was better resolution on his legs & conformation. Personally I thought he looked a lil short/choppy for grandchampion country park. The Fadjur mare's sire was a local country park champion. I'm not big on country park; I think it's too mutch of a notch horse. I like allaround types; if it's typey and allaround, so much the better, lol.
Still open to opinions, I appreciate it. Thx.

[Sandra-A1]

Remember that Arabian Country Pleasure, English Pleasure and Park Classes all call for a different type of movement!
Also you cannot truly tell how one of these horses will move until it is going under saddle. Plus a good rider/trainer can help the horse perform better than an novice or average rider.
I have never heard of a Country Park class...so am assuming that your mean Arabian Country Pleasure...which is VERY different from an Arabian Park Class.

[shell]

The first one has Egyptian lines, the other Polish. Justaberry Bey is an American/Polish combo. So, I think it would be based on the actuall horses not their bloodlines.

[CJ]

OOps, I think I meant Country Pleasure. I told you I didn't pay them much mind! They seem to me like gaited horse "wannabes". From what I've seen at liberty, the Fadjur mare is still the better CP type candidate. The other mare would produce get with Bask in 3 o/o 4 grandparents. Doesn't too much Bask cause a problem..? Suspected but unconfirmed last I heard... I forget what.. not obvious but genetic, like eg: hypp..

[Sandra-A1]

Your going to find people with opinions either way....when it comes to breeding it is not an exact science and there are too many variables.
I have seen linebred *Bask horses that were wonderful horses, and some that were not...you can't simply say that too much of one horse, or particular bloodline, is bad...because there are always people who can prove that it isn't.
*Bask was over bred, in some people's opinion, and since he was bred to a LOT of mares your naturally going to find some *Bask lines that are better than others.
That is the case of any Stallion that is bred a lot.
You will soon be hearing the same about Magnum Psyche since they are breeding him to hundreds of mares a year!

[Sandra-A1]

The following Artice might help you understand the difference between Arabian Country Pleasure & Arabian English Pleasure...plus learn what to look for:

Understanding Arabian English and Country Pleasure Classes
By Bob Battaglia

First, a little background. The Arabian country English pleasure class was instituted originally to provide a showcase for the horse whose upright conformation precluded its participation in western or hunger competitions, but whose general lack of high action or knee elevation make it less that competitive in English pleasure classes. With this addition, the Arabian Division has three distinct sections for saddle seat style riding (including park) which should be judged with strict adherence to individual standards. Probably the simplest way to explain these differences is to examine the USA Equestrian Rule Book specifications which describe qualifying gaits for each event and to expand slightly upon each of these descriptions.

Before looking at the specifications (which frequently include the term moderate collection) it is important for the reader to understand that in this saddle seat style of English riding, knee elevation increases in direct proportion to the degree of collection. It is further important to state the most obvious variable between these three sections, which is, simply, knee elevation (or action). Country English horses should have some elevation (as a result of moderate collection); and park horses should exhibit as high a degree of knee elevation as their conformation, collection and attitude will allow.

With all of this in mind, let's examine Articles 1621 and 1625 of the USA Equestrian Rule Book, comparing, point by point, the standards for the gaits of the English pleasure and country English pleasure horse. The opening explanations state the following: Article 1625--Country English Pleasure: "It is imperative that the horse give the distinct appearance of being a pleasure to ride. A quiet, responsive mouth is paramount. All gaits must be performed with willingness and obvious ease, cadence, balance and smoothness." Article 162--English Pleasure: "It is imperative that the horse give the distinct appearance of being a pleasure to ride and displace a pleasurable attitude. To this end, all gaits must be performed with willingness and obvious ease, cadence, balance and smoothness."

So, both the country English pleasure horse and the English pleasure horse must "give distinct appearance of being a pleasure to ride." And, each must perform all gaits "with willingness and obvious ease, cadence, balance and smoothness." But what does this mean? What makes a horse appear to be a pleasure to ride? A few things are fairly obvious. It should not be necessary for the rider to constantly hold the horse back, nor should the horse continually need to be urged forward. In other words, the horse needs to be comfortable for the ride to look pleasant. If the tail is wringing or tucked, something is wrong. If the ears are held back in a rigid "expression", something is wrong. If the gaits are harsh and choppy, something is wrong. If the gaits are harsh and choppy, something is wrong. Tension between the rider and horse is unpleasant. Communication must be evident and soft to be indicative of pleasure.

The only difference stated in these initial descriptions are for the country English pleasure horse, a quiet, responsive mouth is paramount, while the English pleasure horse must display a pleasurable attitude. In the case of the country English pleasure horse the quiet, responsive mouth is highly indicative of the ultimately relaxed attitude of horse and of rider. At no time is this horse being pushed into the more extreme degrees of collection seen in the English pleasure horse, and beyond that, in the park horse. Again, this is an upright horse, one with a high-set neck and naturally breaking poll. It is a horse that can travel in this position and be ridden comfortably in this position all day long because its collection is neither forced nor taken to any extreme.

Nonetheless, that "quiet, responsive mouth" does not mean that the horse's lips can't move or that it must have a "rigid" mouth--let's not over-kill! Softness and comfort are apparent to the horseman, and this is what we're looking for. We don't want to see a horse gnawing on the bit or gapping, but too much rigidity is simply another way of showing discomfort.

In the case of the English pleasure horse that pleasurable attitude should be easily read by the knowledgeable horseman. Among the most obvious barometers of attitude is the way the horse wears its ears. A happy horse holds its ears forward as the animal looks alertly and inquisitively through the bridle. If the ears are held tightly back, the horse is either exhibiting anger, physical discomfort, frustration, fear, or some combination of these things. More subtle indications can be seen in the horse's way of going. Gaits become inconsistent when forced, in other words, cadence and balance are lost when a horse is forced to collect and/ or elevate beyond its natural capacity.

It is not a pleasure to ride a horse that isn't happy or comfortable (a horse that is being pushed beyond its capacity), but all too often this factor is completely overshadowed by the importance being placed upon the so-called brilliance of a performance.

Among the most appealing of the Arabian horse's characteristics is the animal's innate attitude, which we have come to call its "brilliance." Unfortunately, in the Arabian English Division, this terminology has become a source of serious confusion and contention. In recent years, brilliance has become a catch-all term conveniently relied upon to explain away the fact that a particularly exciting horse was pinned over an honest pleasure horse. Brilliance and knee elevation are not synonymous. The only time the term brilliant (or brilliance) is used in the USA Equestrian Rule Book is in reference to the park horse--it should never be part of the criteria for judging an English pleasure or country pleasure horse. Yet all too often, the horse with the highest action is placed above the true pleasure horse in both country and English pleasure classes.

The terms pleasure and brilliance need to be well understood and thoroughly defined so that English pleasure horse will no longer be mistakenly awarded prizes in country English pleasure classes, and park horses will no longer be erroneously rewarded as top English pleasure horses.

Perhaps by carefully examining the actual class requirements we can encourage participants and judges to reevaluate the way our English horses are being shown and judged with the ultimate goal being to increase the comfort of our horses, not to diminish excitement nor to penalize brilliance. Breaking class specifications down by gaits, the USA Equestrian Rule Book states:

Walk
Article 1621--English Pleasure: "A four-beat gait: Brisk, true and flatfooted with good reach." Article 1621--Country English Pleasure. "A four-beat gait: To be true, flat-footed and ground covering."

The only difference stated here is that the English horse's walk is to be brisk and that this horse should have good reach. The briskness indicates a slightly more animated horse while the "good reach" suggests that the English horse needs greater freedom of shoulder than that possessed by its Country counterpart.

Trot
Article 1621, English Pleasure--Normal trot, a two beat gait: To be performed at medium speed with moderate collection. The normal trop must be mannerly, cadenced, balanced and free moving. Posting is required." Article 1625--Country English Pleasure: "Normal trot, a two beat gait: To be overall balanced, relaxed, easy-going trot with elasticity and freedom of movement. High action must be penalized. Posting is required."

This is the most expressive differentiating factor between the English and country English pleasure horse, and the requirements and differences here are obvious and explicit. The moderately collected English pleasure horse can have a higher degree of knee elevation, the height of which is forbidden in its country counterpart, whose job is quite simply to be relaxed, easy going, free-moving horse.

Strong Trot Article 1621--English Pleasure: "Strong trot, a two-beat gait: This trot is faster and stronger than the normal trot. It is performed with a lengthened stride, powerful and reaching, at a rate of speed which may vary between horses since each horse should attain his own strong trot in harmony with his own maximum natural stride. The horse must not be strung out behind. He should show moderate collection without exaggeratedly high action in front. He must present a willing attitude while maintaining form. The strong trot must be mannerly, cadenced, balanced and free-moving. Posting is required." Article 1625--Country English Pleasure. "Strong trot, a two beat gait: To be faster with lengthened stride, maintaining balance, ease and freedom of movement. High action must be penalized. Posting is required."

Again, the requirements and differences are obvious and explicit. The still moderately collected English pleasure horse can display more "action"… without being exaggeratedly high (knee elevation) in front or strung out in the back. And the country English pleasure horse must still be penalized for high action. The term strong trot is an indication of speed, not high action, extension, not elevation. Too often, the English pleasure horse is expected to look like a park horse, particularly when asked for the strong trot Correspondingly, the country English pleasure horse is expected to look like an English pleasure horse at this gait.

Canter
Article 1621, English Pleasure--"Canter, a three-beat gait: Smooth, unhurried, with moderate collection, correct and straight on both leads." Article 1625, Country English Pleasure--"Canter, a three-beat gait: To be smooth, unhurried, straight and correct on both leads."

One more time, the only differentiation is that the English pleasure horse is moderately collected, which means hi knees can elevate slightly higher.

Hand Gallop
Article 1621, English Pleasure--"The hand gallop is performed with the long, free, ground covering stride under control. The amount of ground covered may vary between horses due to the difference in natural length of stride. The hand gallop is not a fast, collected canter but a true lengthening of stride, correct and straight on both leads. Extreme speed to be penalized. There shall be a distinct difference between the canter and the gallop."

Article 1625, Country English Pleasure--"To be a faster gait, lengthened stride and controlled, straight, and correct on both leads. Extreme speed must be penalized."

In both cases this is quite simply an extension of the slower gait which precedes it, and the emphasis on "must be penalized" in the country English pleasure class is one more reminder that the country horse is to be the quietest and most relaxed representative of the saddle seat style English horse.

I cannot emphasize strongly enough the importance a thorough understanding (particularly by our judges) of the knee elevation or action issue that currently plagues our Arabian show ring. Simply stated, only the park horse is to be judged on the brilliance and high action. The English pleasure horse is to perform with willingness, obvious ease, cadence, balance, and smoothness, and display a pleasurable attitude. The country English pleasure horse is to do all of this without high action--which must be penalized.

An "R"-rated Arabian judge and an "r"-rated National Show Horse judge, Bob Battaglia and his clients have earned 29 U.S. and Canadian national champions and reserve champions, 200 Top Tens, and 500 regional wins from 1972-1993. He currently lives in Brenham, Texas. It was originally published in the '94 November/December issue of IAH and was reprinted with permission from the May 1994 issue of Horse Show.