[Kinzam]

So, something I have been thinking about lately is the fact that alot of people I know are breeding their mares for the sake of breeding their mares. For example, I keep my 2 horses at my neighbors next door and help him train and take care of his horses in exchange for pasture board. He is in the process of breeding his mares because A.) foals are cute and it will be nice for his grandchildren, B.) foals may not make him a profit, but they will bring some small return to offset cost of mares, and C.) 2 of his mares are unfit for riding, so he would like them to "work" in other ways. Now, I allready know that all of the above are classic examples of "why not to breed" your mare. He is well-meaning, and a very nice elderly man who adores his horses, but sometimes his love for them is a little blinding (see posts about the nefarious, wretched mare he keeps around out of love even though it rolls on people)

I was just curious, in your experiance, personal feeling, or opinion, is it ever ok to purposely breed grade horses, say for a winning attitude rather than winning bloodlines? One of my neighbors mares is purebred and registered but is the nastiest, most neurotic creature you ever met. To top it all off she has been bred to an arabian, so I shudder to think about what this fat, neurotic terror bred to a tall leggy arabian will produce. Sometimes I fantasise about killing her off or "accidentally" leaving the gate open. He has another mare that is of unknown breeding but is absolutely sweet, sane, and intelligent even though she has been abused by former owners and been through one horrible time before coming to him. She has the sort of un-crushable "born broke" attitude. She has been bred to a stallion with the same type of attitude. They both have solid conformation, nothing that will set them up for health or soundness issues, so I honestly can't say I would mind seeing a foal out of them that grew up with their attitude. I'd rather have a but ugly horse with the heart of a champion than a gorgeous babe with an evil attitude.

So guys, give it to me. Have you ever condoned or purposely bred a grade horse? Do bloodlines matter or is it about personality? I'm just generally curious on this subject. My horses are either way to young to be bred or gelded, so don't worry - this isn't one of those "advice for a friend" =) threads. =)

[lovemyshy]

In a nutshell, No, I don't believe in breeding a horse (mare or stud) that is conformationally non superior or average. The horse market is over flowing as it is with unwanted horses, and yes, even fantastic horses are slipping through at the auctions and are being sold for meat, but why put even more pressure on the market with horses that are not going to be desirable in the future. I don't believe anything should be bred unless there is an almost guaranteed long term market for it. (I say almost guaranteed because nothing in life is for sure guaranteed).

[Kinzam]

Yep, I can certainly see where you are coming from. I don't know if it is just Georgia, but the horse market has been way down lately. I recently saw a registered Doc stallion, absolutely gorgeous go for no sale at an auction b/c they couldn't get the bidding past 300 and the owner was desperate to make at least 600. And a little girl was selling her Shetland pony - I always thought auctions were meat-buyer horses and nags, but there has been nice stuff at auction around here, especially in this past winter coming off of the summer drought.

So what are your opinions on non-stellar breeding with stellar attitude vs stellar breeding with wretched attitude?

[lovemyshy]

Originally Posted by Kinzam

Yep, I can certainly see where you are coming from. I don't know if it is just Georgia, but the horse market has been way down lately. I recently saw a registered Doc stallion, absolutely gorgeous go for no sale at an auction b/c they couldn't get the bidding past 300 and the owner was desperate to make at least 600. And a little girl was selling her Shetland pony - I always thought auctions were meat-buyer horses and nags, but there has been nice stuff at auction around here, especially in this past winter coming off of the summer drought.

So what are your opinions on non-stellar breeding with stellar attitude vs stellar breeding with wretched attitude?

Good question, but I still feel that when breeding the whole package needs to be considered. Good conformation X with good attitude is always the desirable.

[Kinzam]

Good breeding plus good attitude - oh how I wish it were so with my neighbor's mares. I am REALLY not looking forward to seeing his evil mare reproduce - with my luck, she will have a but ugly foal with the personality of satan. Anyone know of an equine hit-man?

[MyBelgianAzzy]

No. In fact, I think owners ought to be fined a hefty amount for each horse who is foaled without being recorded. I promise you "pasture accidents" and adorable "oops" babies wouldn't happen as often if each had a 5k price tag!

Perhaps registered is too far, as there are MANY wonderful grade horses, and an equal number of shoddy registered horses. I would like to see a 3rd-party group approve and record each mare and stallion, and as I mentioned above, fine all foals who are born to a sire and/or dam who has not been approved.

[equinelover]

Yes, but only for very special situations. Many years ago, I know a farmer who bred his own replacement drafts. His mare was a grade horse who actually worked as a draft and was well suited for the job in terms of conformation and temperament. He bred her to a neighbor’s grade stud who was also a working draft with similar conformation and temperament. The result was a rather nice foal who later turned out to be a very suitable replacement. The reason he did this was working drafts were prohibitively expensive at that time and he didn’t have the time or money to spend on training a replacement. He did this twice over a 12/15-year period with the same mare and stud and got the same result.
Nowadays, the horse market has changed (more supply than demand) so this may no longer be applicable. I have seen some nice drafts, purebred ones with good potential, advertised at very affordable prices. If this farmer were in the same situation today, it would definitely be more practical for him to buy than to breed.

[breezebayou]

As a person who has bred purebred dogs before, and watched the attitudes of those who were, "purebred dog breeders".. I honestly can relate on one hand, but on the other, I dont think that registration, conformation or looks has much to do with breeding a healthy, nice attitude, pleasure horse. ALL horses are not going to be top of the line show horses.. grade as you call it, doesnt have to be a negative term. The guy down the street from us, has AQHA registered paints.. studs that are homozygous for color, and worth a lot of money. BUT>>> he doesnt care for them well, not at all.. So its all relative really.. I think separating the topic into, grade and higher class models, is really not the issue. Rather I believe that responsibility, integrity and a dedication to the species, whether you ride, show or breed.

I agree with you that a satanic witch of a horse should not reproduce out of "making a few bucks".. but I do believe that if a person desires to breed their horse, as we did, to get a foal we can hand raise the right way.. for our children to enjoy, 4h etc.. then I see nothing wrong with that.

Our mare is 1/2 tennessee walker, 1/4 morgan, 1/4 quarter, The sire of her baby was a full registered tennessee, our reason for choosing a walker stud, was purely for the reason of a nice ride. He was of course a high quality stud.. But our motivation was not champions, but rather enjoyment and closer to the type of horse we desire..

Im sorry if I rambled, or if my opinion is not well liked, but I wanted to give a perspective as someone who isnt in the show arena, nor have a business breeding.

Thanks for reading.

[Lazy F Ponies]

Why do I feel like I'm sticking my head on the chopping block? lol

We do breed grade mares to Duke. That's where are most desirable crosses come from. They have to have the right temperment, conformation and the whole package.

Every baby sired by Duke can be registered in the WPCSA as 1/2 Welsh. I used to sell them and give all the paperwork to the new owners, however, they weren't getting registered. From now on, the paperwork will be with WPCSA before they leave here.

We have bred him to unregistered Quarter horses, shetlands and Haflingers (reg. and unreg.) and of course to our Welsh mare.

[Top Dun]

I believe if you are going to breed grade, then breed to improve AND breed to try and get registered. IE Half Arab or other similar Half registry that accepts grade mares as Half's. Additionally if you have a safe, sane, grade mare they make WONDERFUL mule mommas. Mules are often in greater demand, Less bred for so slightly more expensive then a horse foal and buyers often don't care if the mare is a grade or not if the Mule is safe sane and decent looking.
But just breeding more grade, totally unregisterable horses with no thought for Improvement of the foals is not really cool. Plus the fact that there are to many unwanteds right now, there is no guarantee at all that the foal could be sold and or if the man would get any money back at all on the foal.

If you (general you) just HAVE to breed, then breed for something that might be wanted. Mules for example or even a Half bred registered horse.