[Fiera]

Originally Posted by JKetsche

I don't believe it's okay. That's not to say unregistered is bad--I recognize that there are plenty of grade horses that are fantastic. However, there are plenty of registered or registerable horses that are equally fantastic. Breed those, not the grades. My friend recently sold a JC TB who had evented Novice, would easily do jumpers to 3'6", was fantastic on the trail, and was sound, healthy, etc--only 12 years old--for $700 (she paid 4500 for him a few years ago). Why in all the world would anybody pay anything significant for a grade horse when they can get a solid trail horse that also has considerable jump training for that little?

Unbelieveable how bad the market has gotten...I can't imagine how it's going to be when it gets worse...

[Fiera]

Originally Posted by Lou3

since a grade horse is simply a horse that is not purebred YES it is very acceptable to breed grade horses. A lot of the best event horses are TB crossed with a warmblood, a lot of the best english gaming ponies are arabs crossed with a native-type pony.
However it is NEVER acceptable to breed an average or below mare. The horse should always have something that makes you go "wow" whether its the most flawless conformation you've ever seen or a show record with many prestigous and fabulous wins on the card. Temperament is NOT enough.

That's true, but let's say the sire was a registered Hanoverian and the dam a registered TB. Most of the TB, Arab, and one more breed I can't remember mares are licenced to breed with WBs; their foals will be considered WB and can be registered as such. Then how would they be grade? They wouldn't. Their foals would be resgistered and considered as one breed, WB.

[RowdyRio1324]

my horse isn't regitered, but she is still an awesome horse, nope I cant take her to an APHA show but ohwell. So I think, it is okay to bred a grade horse, why? Because if teh owner has a horse they want to breed but isn't registered go for it it, it's your horse. Some registered horses aren't "wow" sometimes either. If the owner wants to bred their horse for their own personal horse, go for it. I mean sure i would be good to go to an actution and rescue place or meat buyer place, and get one.
In all honestly, I hate being told and feel like I can't bred my mare because she doesn't have papers, or a show record. I don't think that makes her a bad horse, many people have liked her, and one has wanted to buy her, I have a feeling that she is registered, just the papers weren't pass on through or the owners were to lazy to send it in. Sorry for the little rant, I don't want to sound mean/rude or anything like that, it just borthers me sometimes. .

[Fiera]

Originally Posted by breezebayou

I have been milling this topic over in my head, and really trying to understand how we as "man" humans can know whats right for animals. You speak of diseases that horses get, and all I can think is, these diseases became more prevelant, when man decided to pick and choose what and who to breed, breed for looks, "conformation" as you call it.. In the wild horses know instinctively to breed for the "fittest" not the one that is most like a breed standard.. a breed standard that was decided on by man.. Who does not have a very good reputation in the animal world for conserving nature.. Sad really, that we think we can play God with genetics, all for the sake of having a "pure" breed horse..

If we hadnt started to mess with nature, and breed for show, we probably wouldnt have had all the problems with all these genetic disorders.. As always this is JMHO..

What you may be saying is true, but then you're just contradicting yourself ;] We started this breeding mess. We, as the superior species, felt the need to use horses to fulfill out needs...so we began breeding for what would best suit our purpose. SO if you say we can't play god and pick and choose which horses breed, breeding grade horses would be doing the exact same thing: picking which stallion to indescriminately breed your mare to. Now, the rules of nature don't apply anymore. Our horses are no longer in a wild environment which can pick off the weak and preserve the strong. Now humans are playing the role of the environment (or should be, at least). We pick which horses would survive best in our competitive world and allow them to breed. Horses and animals in general NEED to be regulated by SOMETHING, whether human or nature, in order to keep their secies strong and healthy. We as humans, who took away the nature factor, need to now play the role of the environment and regulate breeding like the wilderness would of done. That is how animals are meant to be, that is how the world works with all creatures. We cannot just take away the wild and leave the species to breed indescriminately now that there is no force to regulate them. WE need to be nature now and let only the "strong" continue on their desireable genes.

[Fiera]

Originally Posted by Lexy

Amen!

As much as I hate to agree that we, (humans), have totally scre*wed up things, it is so true.

For instance... (so picked on) Impressive. But the reason he is so picked on when it comes to these lines of thoughts is because of the multitude of genetic faults HE had that has been passed on and on and on and on.

Heck, just for a minute forget about HYPP. That is just the last in a line of problems the "Impressive bred" horses have to deal with.. (or their owners deal with).

It's no doubt that Impressive was a prolific sire. Numbers don't lie. He sired 2250 foals with tens of thousands descendants. (and those are just the ones that are recorded!)

But, let's face it, for all that he was, he would not have made it "in the wild". He would have been dead many years before he managed to bread even a small percentage of the mares he did.

He had pedal osteitis, which IMO has been passed on genetically. This alone would have limited his breeding prowess as a stallion as he would not have been able to compete with other stallions for breeding rights.

He had colic surgery (I think) 4 times. (trying to find where I read that). Of course, some of those problems may have been man-made feeding programs.

And of course the HYPP (which as I have read, he did suffer
moderate episodes of)

But he's not in the wild, is he? ;] If you disagree with us playing god, then throw out all you material comforts which are all created by us laying God.

[lvmypnt]

Originally Posted by Lou3

it doesnt matter if it can registered or not.
The best performance horse I ever sat on was an unregistered mare. Two of her offspring are now advanced level event horses, one of them was 4th at Badminton one year (cant remember which year)
A horse doesnt need papers to be a good horse, showing people will probably disagree with me but IMO papers do not define whether a horse is or is not worth breeding from. Conformation and performance record decide that.

I agree 150%.

Someone posted earlier that a grade horse was a grade horse because it is not a purebred horse. I did not think this was true as I always thought a non registered horse is considered grade.

[Kinzam]

So, why is the horse market so bad? Is there more at play than the influx of horses? I had assumed the drought in parts of GA this past summer were a big part of the reason horses were dirt cheap/free this past winter. How long do you think this will continue?

[Smoke N Lace]

Originally Posted by lvmypnt

I agree 150%.

Someone posted earlier that a grade horse was a grade horse because it is not a purebred horse. I did not think this was true as I always thought a non registered horse is considered grade.

A grade horse is one without registration papers. He may be a purebred and have an excellent pedigree--just no papers go with him. If he doesn't have papers he is considered a grade horse. The half-breed registries do not have purebred horses, but the horses are registered because they have registration papers. We could start a new registry for bays with 2 socks if you get down to it. IMO the value of the papers varies as well.

[Lexy]

Originally Posted by Kinzam

So, why is the horse market so bad? Is there more at play than the influx of horses? I had assumed the drought in parts of GA this past summer were a big part of the reason horses were dirt cheap/free this past winter. How long do you think this will continue?

It's really kinda funny how everyone thinks the market has become so "flooded". The market is no more flooded with horses now than it has been in many years past.

There are probably LESS horses on the market now than there were say 10 yrs ago. The difference now is there are less options where those horses are marketed. It's not that there are more horses as it is there is less of a market. And yes....... I am talking about slaughter.

The drought not only affected GA, it was (and still is to an extent) throughout the southeast/mid-west. That has only a small impact tho. There have been many other drought situations that lasted for more years than one and while it may have caused prices to go down some...... it didn't cause the drastic drop in prices that we are experiencing now.

How long it will continue depends on so many things, but honestly, I don't see the market rebounding back to the level it was just a decade ago.

[Lexy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexy
Amen!

As much as I hate to agree that we, (humans), have totally scre*wed up things, it is so true.

For instance... (so picked on) Impressive. But the reason he is so picked on when it comes to these lines of thoughts is because of the multitude of genetic faults HE had that has been passed on and on and on and on.

Heck, just for a minute forget about HYPP. That is just the last in a line of problems the "Impressive bred" horses have to deal with.. (or their owners deal with).

It's no doubt that Impressive was a prolific sire. Numbers don't lie. He sired 2250 foals with tens of thousands descendants. (and those are just the ones that are recorded!)

But, let's face it, for all that he was, he would not have made it "in the wild". He would have been dead many years before he managed to bread even a small percentage of the mares he did.

He had pedal osteitis, which IMO has been passed on genetically. This alone would have limited his breeding prowess as a stallion as he would not have been able to compete with other stallions for breeding rights.

He had colic surgery (I think) 4 times. (trying to find where I read that). Of course, some of those problems may have been man-made feeding programs.

And of course the HYPP (which as I have read, he did suffer
moderate episodes of)

Originally Posted by Fiera

But he's not in the wild, is he? ;] If you disagree with us playing god, then throw out all you material comforts which are all created by us laying God.

Fiera,

My above comments were not concerning the part of the post I was replying to about "playing God". They were to THIS part:

If we hadnt started to mess with nature, and breed for show, we probably wouldnt have had all the problems with all these genetic disorders.. As always this is JMHO..

NO...... Impressive wasn't in the wild but you can bet your bottom dollar had he been, he would never have lived past 3 or 4 yrs old. He would have never sired 2250 offspring nor would he have been the grnd...ggrnd etc, sire of 55,000 (as of 2003) plus horses. Then again.... No stallion in the wild, no matter how healthy would ever match that sire record.

My point was that WE (man) have bred these horses for our specific desires.. (notice I said DESIRES, not NEEDS), and in doing so WE have caused all these genetic problems that OUR selected breeding programs have manifested and perpetuated throughout the horse industry.

And my material comforts are not the result of man playing God. Playing God is taking something created by Him and manipulating it into something else...... but that is a whole nuther discussion that I could and would get pretty lengthy on.