[Lexy]

Originally Posted by Lou3

A horse doesnt need papers to be a good horse, showing people will probably disagree with me but IMO papers do not define whether a horse is or is not worth breeding from. Conformation and performance record decide that.

I am a show person and I don't disagree with you. One of our good show horses was, for all intense purposes, a grade horse. His dam was a red roan mare we bought at the Friday night sale for $400. It's possible she had papers somewhere, just not that night. His sire was a paint stallion that my hubby owned before I met him. The sire was by a registered stallion (Cyclone Cochise) and out of a grade paint mare. He was never registered due to the fact that hubby didn't care about the papers, he cared whether the horse was ridable all day long working cows. He was and one of the best riding horses I ever sat on.

The colt produced out of that cross was one of the prettiest COLORED colts I had/have ever seen. We registered him with APHA under hardship. Yes, he had papers... but what are papers without pedigree?

Papers are MOSTLY good for one thing, marketability. When we decided to sell Thunder, it wasn't very hard to do. He was flashy enough. The color catches the eye. But when the buyer asked who his sire and dam were, we told him..... two grade horses. He looked a little . He asked.... so he is unregistered? Told him no.... he IS registered hardship. He went from to in a snap and shelled out the 4 grand right there.

LOL... Several yrs ago I got on the phone with my dad. We were talking horses. I was telling him about this new horse we had bought. Going on and on about the pedigree.... how we got a good deal... and how much the horse was really worth.

He listened intently... as all good fathers do (who are going to give a lesson to their child). When I finally took a breath, he said.

"Punkin... I hate to tell ya this, but that horse ain't worth no more than YOU paid for it."

WHAT? Daddy, you just don't know about registered horses. It is by this stallion outta that mare blah blah blah.

"I understand Punkin..... but it ain't worth no more than YOU paid for it and may be even worth less than that."

I knew to shut up and listen.. no one ever wins an argument with my dad.... cause as he says. He's right most time.

He said, "NOTHING in this world that costs money is worth anything more than what a person is willing to pay for it. Until you sell it for more, then it is worth exactly what you paid for it. Chances are you may have to sell it for less than you paid for it, then it ain't even worth what you paid for it."

But Daddy....... it's got papers. It's....... (he cut me off)

He said, "Oh, I see.... It can read! Maybe it IS worth a lot of money after all."

What can ya say to that?

[tightpaycheck]

I think it's fine to breed grade horses. A piece of paper doesn't make one horse better than another. I don't like people breeding without any thought into what the foal would be like. Conformation so bad it affects athletic ability, nasty attitudes, bad feet, and hereditary illness or lameness shouldn't be bred into horses with or without papers.
Of course the market is changing now. I believe that responsible breeders will have to cut back since the horses aren't selling. The number of horses that are bred randomly and without any planning by people who can't afford to geld the colt they have running with the mares may exceed those being bred for conformation and athletic ability at some point. And quite a few people would prefer to purchase one of these horses so they can say they "rescued" it. People pay lots of money for a PMU foal, when they could more cheaply buy a registered foal locally. Who knows what the future might hold.
Of course, for myself I prefer registered horses, and wouldn't breed a mare without papers. But if someone wanted to breed a grade mare to my stud I would do it.

[Smoke N Lace]

Originally Posted by Kinzam

Good breeding plus good attitude - oh how I wish it were so with my neighbor's mares. I am REALLY not looking forward to seeing his evil mare reproduce - with my luck, she will have a but ugly foal with the personality of satan. Anyone know of an equine hit-man?

Maybe this mare is not evil by nature, but has had life experiences that made her what she is. Do you know why she is the hellion you describe? IMO most hard to deal with horses were made, not born. If that is the case, the baby would hopefully not inherit bad personality traits.

[Smoke N Lace]

Originally Posted by whiteraven

To me that registration is a protection for a horse. Registration adds value that passes to the next owner. Without that extra value the horse is (IMHO) more likely to head to the auction...

Since horses have gotten so cheap down here, I know breeders that are having to "dump" colts at auction. Those pedigreed colts are being sold without papers because the owners figure they might have to give the colts away, but they don't have to give them away with their papers. The registration papers don't appear to be making that much difference in the auctions I have been to lately. There are lots of well-bred, conformationally-correct horses out there that have somehow been separated from their papers. Since the majority of the horse owners in this country are not concerned about showing (and not all shows require papers--only breed shows, I believe) I think there is a market for a nice horse that rides well whether he has papers or not to the average consumer. I raised AQHA and APHA horses for years, but sold most of my horses a few years back. I could see the downturn and knew it was time to get out. I have kept three horses, all registered, but wouldn't hesitate to buy a grade horses if it looked and performed like I wanted. IMO this situation will sort itself out because there will be no market for most of the colts out there. Hopefully, people will see the handwriting on the wall and quit breeding anything except the best to the best. What's sad to me is that the situation is going to get worse before it gets better and the horses are going to suffer because of it. When the backyard breeder who raises a mediocre foal or two to help pay for expenses can't sell them for the price of a few sacks of feed, they'll quit. But, meanwhile, we are swamped with horses and don't have much of a market. It doesn't really matter about the papers IMO.

[Lexy]

Originally Posted by tightpaycheck

Of course, for myself I prefer registered horses, and wouldn't breed a mare without papers. But if someone wanted to breed a grade mare to my stud I would do it.

If you wouldn't breed a mare without papers, why would you breed a grade mare that belongs to someone else to your stallion?

[tightpaycheck]

It just deleted my whole answer...argghhh. Ok, in a nutshell I don't have to find a home for someone else's foal. I don't have to feed the mare. I love Paints, and choose to breed registered horses. I want foals I can show. And hopefully I can get more money for a registered foal. But if someone else has a nice grade mare and wants a foal by my stallion that doesn't bother me at all. Why should it?

[Lexy]

Originally Posted by tightpaycheck

It just deleted my whole answer...argghhh. Ok, in a nutshell I don't have to find a home for someone else's foal. I don't have to feed the mare. I love Paints, and choose to breed registered horses. I want foals I can show. And hopefully I can get more money for a registered foal. But if someone else has a nice grade mare and wants a foal by my stallion that doesn't bother me at all. Why should it?

It's just that usually stallion owners are one way or the other. Either they would own/breed grade horses or they wouldn't do either.

From one stand point, as a stallion owner, breeding a grade mare (no matter how sound and sane they are), you take the risk of having a baby out there representing YOUR stud that might not be as good as you want. BUT, that goes for papered mares too.

It's a crapshoot anyway you look at it.

I was looking at some pic of some horses that are in the pedigree of a stud we once owned and bred quite a few mares to. Showed him and the babies and did well. Honestly...... those were some Uuuglly horses! Not only were they ugly, conformation wise, they weren't anything I would want in my pasture.

One that stands out in my mind is a mare named Cutthroat. Ugly don't cover it... heck, even a tarp wouldn't cover the ugly on that mare. BUT, she was the dam of Oklahoma Star.... who was not only ugly, but IMO, his confo was terrible. See pic



However ugly he was, he was a good sire and one of the legends of quarter horses not only as a sire, but as a performer.

(the short version)

Oklahoma Star
Breed: Quarter Horse
P-6 1915 Stallion bay
Foal Crops:14
Foals Registered: 119

Match raced as an early adult, he became known as a speed horse.
Undisputed premier sire of roping horses.

His most famous sons were:
Nowata Star. would sire 9 Rom Race Horses, 16 Rom Performance Horses, one AQHA Champion

Star Deck. Sired 6 AQHA Champions

Oklahoma Star Jr. Sired 5 AQHA Champions. (this is the specific lineage of Skipa Star)

Osage Star

Congress Star.

[megan_kat22]

no b/c there are already too many unwanted horses in the world w/o breeded mixes.

[Donella]

I don't have a problem with the odd breeding here or there, if the grade is EXCEPTIONAL in its abilities, conformation and temperment. And if the person breeding can provide a home for it for as long as it lives, if the horse turns out to be a throwback to something gross in it's unknown ancestry.

People who breed grades just because they "want a good working/trail type horse" are the problem. Sorry, but if you want a good working horses for just random riding..go down to the slaughter auctions, or the sales where THOUSANDS of qh's, grades ect go through everymonth, for the precise reason that someone bred them with no real intent or market in mind except to get a "good workin horse..". I also have a feeling that ALOT of people are clued out as to what really good conformation is..ie are really barn blind because from my perspective, about 1 percent of the grade horses I have seen have what I would consider exceptional..ie breed worthy conformation.

But..then the problem isn't really as much as wether it is a grade or not..but more wether or not it should even be bred and also, very importantly, wether there is a strong market for the offspring.For example, there are TONNES of great qh prospects that go for meat in our area. Everyone breeds qh's despite the fact that everywhere you look, they are for sale in massive quantities. Even the cute ones are CHEAP. Why can't people take a clue...the market is flooded, we don't need anymore people breeding them(unless you are the people breeding world class cutters/reiners ect)..and that goes for any other breed or type in which there is no market for the resultant foal. I don't even know how it can be worth it for a person to breed something and only have it be worth a few thousand bucks by the time it's three, considering how much breeding costs, risks ect.

I don't mean to sound so negative, but I think people need to take an honest look at their stock as well as the market to which the foal is intended before breeding. If you don't..you are the problem.

kyla

[Donella]

But if someone wanted to breed a grade mare to my stud I would do it.

Well, money talks doesnt it? Obviously, for many stallion owners, ethics take a back seat to money. I suppose if a person is very careful about the grade mare being bred, but my experience with many stallion owners is that they will breed to anyone who wants to pay.

You know it's funny??.. when a dog breeder does it , they are unethical and often considered to be akin to a puppymill. If I said.."I am standing my golden lab to any dog, and if someone wants to bring her mutt to my dog and they pay me..I have no problem"..People would freak. They would rant about how many dogs are euthenized every year, why it's wrong to breed mutts, why we should just go down and adopt one instead of contributing to the problem. Why is it different with horses? Sorry but for me it isn't. You breed your stallion to some random grade mare, or any mare with less then good conformation, you are part of the problem.